Full thread (21 messages)
From: Petr Pařízek (2009-04-11)
Subject: An interesting harmonic progression
Hi tuners,
I've made a recording of a harmonic progression which I find quite
interesting because of the following reasons:
A) Even though it includes five major triads and only one minor triad, the
overall "feeling" seems to be that it's in a minor key -- and that's just
because the minor triad is used as the tonic.
B) The first melodic phrase sounds so "ordinary" that it almost makes you
sing along but when you try to play it with conventional instruments, soon
you realize it's impossible to convert to 12-equal.
Here it is:
www.sendspace.com/file/31wt3a
Petr
From: Chris Vaisvil (2009-04-11)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
Hi Petr,
It sounds very interesting. My impression is... harmonic minor?
What tuning is it in?
2009/4/11 Petr Pařízek
>
>
> Hi tuners,
>
> I've made a recording of a harmonic progression which I find quite
> interesting because of the following reasons:
> A) Even though it includes five major triads and only one minor triad, the
> overall "feeling" seems to be that it's in a minor key -- and that's just
> because the minor triad is used as the tonic.
> B) The first melodic phrase sounds so "ordinary" that it almost makes you
> sing along but when you try to play it with conventional instruments, soon
> you realize it's impossible to convert to 12-equal.
> Here it is:
> www.sendspace.com/file/31wt3a
>
> Petr
>
>
> M
>
From: Petr Pařízek (2009-04-11)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
Hi Chris,
it's quite distant from harmonic minor ... Actually, it's an 11-tone scale of the hanson temperament whose period is an octave and whose generator is close to 317 cents.
Petr
From: Chris Vaisvil (2009-04-11)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
This is very interesting because it sounds like a slightly twisted version
of 12 tet
So, this scale then uses an 11 tone "equivalent" of 7 tone 12 tet diatonic?
Which if this is right means that I'd have 4 more notes to play with in a
"normal" sounding framework.
I need to see if this scale is in the scala tuning packet. I think I'd like
to try it.
2009/4/11 Petr Pařízek
>
> .
>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> it's quite distant from harmonic minor ... Actually, it's an 11-tone scale
> of the hanson temperament whose period is an octave and whose generator is
> close to 317 cents.
>
> Petr
>
>
>
>
From: Carl Lumma (2009-04-11)
Subject: Re: An interesting harmonic progression
--- In [email protected], Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> I need to see if this scale is in the scala tuning packet.
> I think I'd like to try it.
!
11-tone MOS of hanson (in 19-ET).
11
!
189.474 !....3
252.632 !....4
315.789 !....5
505.263 !....8
568.421 !....9
631.579 !...10
821.053 !...13
884.211 !...14
1073.684 !..17
1136.842 !..18
2/1 !.......19
!
-Carl
From: Petr Pařízek (2009-04-11)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
I'm not sure what you mean by <<11 tone "equivalent" of 7 tone 12 tet diatonic>>.
Petr
From: Petr Pařízek (2009-04-11)
Subject: Re: An interesting harmonic progression
To Chris and Carl and others,
here's the one I used:
! hanson11.scl
!
11-tone hanson MOS (1/1 is A)
11
!
68.46135
248.65399
317.11534
385.57669
565.76932
634.23068
814.42331
882.88466
951.34601
1131.53865
2/1
Petr
From: Herman Miller (2009-04-11)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
Petr Pa\u0159�zek wrote:
> Hi tuners,
>
> I've made a recording of a harmonic progression which I find quite
> interesting because of the following reasons:
> A) Even though it includes five major triads and only one minor triad, the
> overall "feeling" seems to be that it's in a minor key -- and that's just
> because the minor triad is used as the tonic.
> B) The first melodic phrase sounds so "ordinary" that it almost makes you
> sing along but when you try to play it with conventional instruments, soon
> you realize it's impossible to convert to 12-equal.
> Here it is:
> www.sendspace.com/file/31wt3a
>
> Petr
It's amazing how "ordinary" that does sound, considering the size of the
intervals. Well, my sense of "ordinary" is a bit warped of course... But
it's a really nice example of a comma pump (or should I say kleisma pump?).
From: Chris Vaisvil (2009-04-11)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
I mean by that statement that the 11 tone subset (of 19? it looks) functions
musically the same as the 7 note subset of 12 ET.
the 11 notes are not "chromatic" just like a major or minor scale note
collection are not chromatic.
In any case since Carl was nice enough to provide the scala formatted scale
I'll give this a try and see if I'm right.
(that's already saved, thanks Carl!)
Chris
2009/4/11 Petr Pařízek
>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by <<11 tone "equivalent" of 7 tone 12 tet
> diatonic>>.
>
> Petr
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: Charles Lucy (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression - Fun!
Very neat fun piece Petr.
Would you be good enough to also upload the midi or DAW files?
On 11 Apr 2009, at 10:53, Petr Pařízek wrote:
>
>
> Hi tuners,
>
> I've made a recording of a harmonic progression which I find quite
> interesting because of the following reasons:
> A) Even though it includes five major triads and only one minor
> triad, the
> overall "feeling" seems to be that it's in a minor key -- and that's
> just
> because the minor triad is used as the tonic.
> B) The first melodic phrase sounds so "ordinary" that it almost
> makes you
> sing along but when you try to play it with conventional
> instruments, soon
> you realize it's impossible to convert to 12-equal.
> Here it is:
> www.sendspace.com/file/31wt3a
>
> Petr
>
>
Charles Lucy
lucy@...
- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com
For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk
From: Chris Vaisvil (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: An interesting harmonic progression
Thanks Petr!
2009/4/11 Petr Pařízek
> To Chris and Carl and others,
>
> here's the one I used:
>
> ! hanson11.scl
> !
> 11-tone hanson MOS (1/1 is A)
> 11
> !
> 68.46135
> 248.65399
> 317.11534
> 385.57669
> 565.76932
> 634.23068
> 814.42331
> 882.88466
> 951.34601
> 1131.53865
> 2/1
>
> Petr
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
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>
>
From: Petr Pařízek (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression - Fun!
Charles wrote:
> Would you be good enough to also upload the midi or DAW files?
First of all, what do you mean by DAW files?
For another thing, although it shouldn’t be a problem for me to make a MIDI version for you, I’m not sure in which way I should do it. If I send you the recording of what keys I was using to play the chords, it won’t tell you anything about what chords I was actually playing because I often had to change the pitches so much that I played B-E-G on my keyboard and I heard something a bit lower than a C major. If you wish to find more about the chords, I think the best way is to describe them as degrees of the 11-tone scale. If you look at the Scala listing I posted in my last message, you’ll see that there are two sizes of one-step intervals alternating, one slightly above 68 cents and another slightly above 180 cents (I’ll call them S and L, respectively) and that 4L+7S makes 1200 cents. If you look at the scale carefully, you’ll realize that L+2S sounds like a very good minor third and that L+3S sounds like a very good major third, which means that 2L+5S sounds like a very good fifth. And because this scale tempers out (or turns into unison) the „kleisma“ (i.e. the distance of a perfect twelfth minus 6 just minor thirds), then adding an octave (4L+7S) to this 2L+5S makes exactly 6 times the interval that I say sounds like a good minor third. Of course, this could never be done in temperaments like meantone or 12-equal, because they don’t temper out the kleisma. But as Carl has pointed out, 19-equal does, and so does 34-equal and 53-equal.
Petr
From: Petr Pařízek (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
Chris wrote:
> I mean by that statement that the 11 tone subset (of 19? it looks)
> functions musically the same as the 7 note subset of 12 ET.
If by "functions musically the same" you mean what I think you mean, then probably you're right. But don't forget that you can get hanson not only in 19-equal but also in 34-equal or 53-equal or whatever you want, similarly as you can get meantone in 19-equal and 31-equal and 50-equal and others. The general rule is that meantone tempers out the syntonic comma (i.e. the distance of four perfect fifths minus a just 5/1) while hanson tempers out the kleisma (i.e. the distance of a perfect twelfth minus six just minor thirds). -- Clear?
Petr
From: Petr Pařízek (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
Herman wrote:
> It's amazing how "ordinary" that does sound, considering the size of the
> intervals. Well, my sense of "ordinary" is a bit warped of course... But
> it's a really nice example of a comma pump (or should I say kleisma pump?).
It is. And according to my recent comma pump modelling schemes, it’s actually the shortest possible.
Petr
From: Charles Lucy (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression - Fun!
Thanks for the explanation.
I had made the request before seeing the scala data.
A DAW is a digital workstation; e.g. Logic, CuBase etc. i.e. .lso or
other file.
I didn't know how you had produced it: pitch-bent midi; midi using
tuning tables; or as you explain by other methods.
I was interested to figure out exactly how you had tuned everything,
as when I attempted to play along with it casually on guitar, I had
heard many pitches which closely matched
the pitches which I was getting on a 19 note per octave LucyTuned 12-
string, with A set as 440Hz, and wondered about the approximate minors
that we had heard.
Looking at the equivalent LT notes I got A, A#, Cb, C, C#, Ebb?, Eb,
F, F#, Fx?, and Ab (mostly within less than 5 cents, and some less
than a cent)
My L-s being being approx 68 cents, and my L being approx. 191 cents.
On 12 Apr 2009, at 10:48, Petr Pařízek wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Charles wrote:
>
> > Would you be good enough to also upload the midi or DAW files?
>
> First of all, what do you mean by DAW files?
>
> For another thing, although it shouldn’t be a problem for me to
> make a MIDI version for you, I’m not sure in which way I should do
> it. If I send you the recording of what keys I was using to play the
> chords, it won’t tell you anything about what chords I was actually
> playing because I often had to change the pitches so much that I
> played B-E-G on my keyboard and I heard something a bit lower than a
> C major. If you wish to find more about the chords, I think the best
> way is to describe them as degrees of the 11-tone scale. If you look
> at the Scala listing I posted in my last message, you’ll see that
> there are two sizes of one-step intervals alternating, one slightly
> above 68 cents and another slightly above 180 cents (I’ll call them
> S and L, respectively) and that 4L+7S makes 1200 cents. If you look
> at the scale carefully, you’ll realize that L+2S sounds like a very
> good minor third and that L+3S sounds like a very good major third,
> which means that 2L+5S sounds like a very good fifth. And because
> this scale tempers out (or turns into unison) the „kleisma“ (i.e.
> the distance of a perfect twelfth minus 6 just minor thirds), then
> adding an octave (4L+7S) to this 2L+5S makes exactly 6 times the
> interval that I say sounds like a good minor third. Of course, this
> could never be done in temperaments like meantone or 12-equal,
> because they don’t temper out the kleisma. But as Carl has pointed
> out, 19-equal does, and so does 34-equal and 53-equal.
>
> Petr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Charles Lucy
lucy@...
- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com
For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk
From: Chris Vaisvil (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
Hi Petr,
I understand all of this except "you can get hanson not only in 19-equal but
also in 34-equal or 53-equal or whatever you want, similarly as you can get
meantone in 19-equal and 31-equal and 50-equal and others."
Which implies "hanson" is a technique and not a tuning author/composer as I
first thought.
So what I think you are saying is that 19, 34, 53 equal can be used to
approximately temper the kleisma by note/pitch selection?
Thanks,
Chris
2009/4/12 Petr Pařízek
>
>
> Chris wrote:
>
> > I mean by that statement that the 11 tone subset (of 19? it looks)
> > functions musically the same as the 7 note subset of 12 ET.
>
> If by "functions musically the same" you mean what I think you mean, then
> probably you're right. But don't forget that you can get hanson not only in
> 19-equal but also in 34-equal or 53-equal or whatever you want, similarly as
> you can get meantone in 19-equal and 31-equal and 50-equal and others. The
> general rule is that meantone tempers out the syntonic comma (i.e. the
> distance of four perfect fifths minus a just 5/1) while hanson tempers out
> the kleisma (i.e. the distance of a perfect twelfth minus six just minor
> thirds). -- Clear?
>
> Petr
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: Petr Pařízek (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
Chris wrote:
> So what I think you are saying is that 19, 34, 53 equal can be used
> to approximately temper the kleisma by note/pitch selection?
Yes, see the second table on this webpage: http://tonalsoft.com/enc/e/equal-temperament.aspx
Petr
From: Petr Pařízek (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
I wrote:
> Yes, see the second table on this webpage: http://tonalsoft.com/enc/e/equal-temperament.aspx
Oops, I meant the first table, of course.
Petr
From: Chris Vaisvil (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression
To be honest - the information is not presented in a way the non-initiated
can understand.
I sort of get the idea with the first graphic - but the table is... really
hard to make any sense of.
I think I need to learn more by lurking some more. Thanks though Petr.
Chris
2009/4/12 Petr Pařízek
>
>
> I wrote:
>
> > Yes, see the second table on this webpage:
> http://tonalsoft.com/enc/e/equal-temperament.aspx
>
> Oops, I meant the first table, of course.
>
> Petr
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: Carl Lumma (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: An interesting harmonic progression
--- In [email protected], Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> To be honest - the information is not presented in a way the
> non-initiated can understand.
>
> I sort of get the idea with the first graphic - but the table
> is... really hard to make any sense of.
>
> I think I need to learn more by lurking some more. Thanks
> though Petr.
>
> Chris
Have you read this one Chris?
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/regular-temperaments.html
I think it's the best 1-pager we've got at the moment.
-Carl
From: Herman Miller (2009-04-12)
Subject: Re: [tuning] An interesting harmonic progression - Fun!
Charles Lucy wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I had made the request before seeing the scala data.
> A DAW is a digital workstation; e.g. Logic, CuBase etc. i.e. .lso or
> other file.
>
> I didn't know how you had produced it: pitch-bent midi; midi using
> tuning tables; or as you explain by other methods.
>
> I was interested to figure out exactly how you had tuned everything, as
> when I attempted to play along with it casually on guitar, I had heard
> many pitches which closely matched
> the pitches which I was getting on a 19 note per octave LucyTuned
> 12-string, with A set as 440Hz, and wondered about the approximate
> minors that we had heard.
>
> Looking at the equivalent LT notes I got A, A#, Cb, C, C#, Ebb?, Eb, F,
> F#, Fx?, and Ab (mostly within less than 5 cents, and some less than a cent)
>
> My L-s being being approx 68 cents, and my L being approx. 191 cents.
The tuning used in this example and LucyTuning both have 19-note MOS
scales, so some resemblance is expected. The small steps happen to be
around 68 or 69 cents. The major and minor thirds are within 4 cents of
LucyTuning, although a couple notes in the 11-note scale may be around
10.5 - 11 cents away from the nearest LT note depending on the tuning of
the generator.