Full thread (39 messages)
From: dr_frost_2000 (2006-01-20)
Subject: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
I've completed completed an implementation thats supports custom
intonations as extremely high tuning resolutions. In addition the
implementation supports realtime modulation to other tunings, or by an
interval within the currently active tuning.
Custom intonations can be loaded via file. Given 100 memory locations
for internal tunings (each of 128 notes individually tunable for each
memory location), what tunings are ideal for these preset memory
location?
Having played and performed with Lou Harrison and some other famous
gamlean musicians I will include some of their types of tunings.
What specific tunings do you recommend?
From: Cleverson (2006-01-20)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Hello,
I'd enjoy that some of those tunings were just intonations, since I'm
looking for a software that tunes synthesisers in real time or retunes
MIDI files, in order to produce my compositions in just intonation
without detuning at minor chords and modulations.
Tks,
Cleverson
-----Mensagem Original-----
De: "dr_frost_2000" <[email protected]>
Para: <[email protected]>
Enviada em: sexta-feira, 20 de janeiro de 2006 17:12
Assunto: [tuning] Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
I've completed completed an implementation thats supports custom
intonations as extremely high tuning resolutions. In addition the
implementation supports realtime modulation to other tunings, or by an
interval within the currently active tuning.
Custom intonations can be loaded via file. Given 100 memory locations
for internal tunings (each of 128 notes individually tunable for each
memory location), what tunings are ideal for these preset memory
location?
Having played and performed with Lou Harrison and some other famous
gamlean musicians I will include some of their types of tunings.
What specific tunings do you recommend?
You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
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From: dr_frost_2000 (2006-01-20)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Cleverson,
Lots of the tunings will be Just Intonations. Do you have a favorite?
This instrument goes beyond the status quo Just Intonation type Pure
Major and Pure Minor JI. Also, realtime tuning changes are a breeze in
performance.
Just Intonation 7-Limit, 11-Limit, 13-Limit primes, or JI of non repeating
octaves, rational approximations to a specific well, meantone, or equal
temperment, what are you looking for in the presets?
Cheers,
David
--- In [email protected], "Cleverson" <clever92000@y...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'd enjoy that some of those tunings were just intonations, since I'm
> looking for a software that tunes synthesisers in real time or retunes
> MIDI files, in order to produce my compositions in just intonation
> without detuning at minor chords and modulations.
>
> Tks,
> Cleverson
> -----Mensagem Original-----
> De: "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...>
> Para: <[email protected]>
> Enviada em: sexta-feira, 20 de janeiro de 2006 17:12
> Assunto: [tuning] Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
>
>
> I've completed completed an implementation thats supports custom
> intonations as extremely high tuning resolutions. In addition the
> implementation supports realtime modulation to other tunings, or by an
> interval within the currently active tuning.
>
> Custom intonations can be loaded via file. Given 100 memory locations
> for internal tunings (each of 128 notes individually tunable for each
> memory location), what tunings are ideal for these preset memory
> location?
>
> Having played and performed with Lou Harrison and some other
famous
> gamlean musicians I will include some of their types of tunings.
>
> What specific tunings do you recommend?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> [email protected] - join the tuning group.
> [email protected] - leave the group.
> [email protected] - turn off mail from the group.
> [email protected] - set group to send daily digests.
> [email protected] - set group to send individual
emails.
> [email protected] - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________
> Yahoo! doce lar. Faça do Yahoo! sua homepage.
> http://br.yahoo.com/homepageset.html
>
From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
--- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...> wrote:
> Custom intonations can be loaded via file. Given 100 memory locations
> for internal tunings (each of 128 notes individually tunable for each
> memory location), what tunings are ideal for these preset memory
> location?
What's ideal depends on what tuning goal you are using to define
ideal. What do you wish the tunings to achieve?
> What specific tunings do you recommend?
Can you simply use every scale in the Scala scl directory, or is
thousands of scales too many to handle? One basic thing which should
be on the agenda are some of the simpler equal divisions, such as 19,
22 and 31.
From: Cleverson (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Well, David, I've started to learn and hear examples of just intonation
a few months ago. What I simply want for the moment, although I've been
become each time more interested in non-traditional tunings, is to play
and/or hear my compositions and other pieces played with the same notes
they are in 12-note equal temperament, but in just intonation. Those are
simply pieces in traditional 12-tones scale.
Cleverson
-----Mensagem Original-----
De: "dr_frost_2000" <[email protected]>
Para: <[email protected]>
Enviada em: sexta-feira, 20 de janeiro de 2006 20:50
Assunto: [tuning] Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Cleverson,
Lots of the tunings will be Just Intonations. Do you have a favorite?
This instrument goes beyond the status quo Just Intonation type Pure
Major and Pure Minor JI. Also, realtime tuning changes are a breeze in
performance.
Just Intonation 7-Limit, 11-Limit, 13-Limit primes, or JI of non
repeating
octaves, rational approximations to a specific well, meantone, or equal
temperment, what are you looking for in the presets?
Cheers,
David
--- In [email protected], "Cleverson" <clever92000@y...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'd enjoy that some of those tunings were just intonations, since I'm
> looking for a software that tunes synthesisers in real time or retunes
> MIDI files, in order to produce my compositions in just intonation
> without detuning at minor chords and modulations.
>
> Tks,
> Cleverson
> -----Mensagem Original-----
> De: "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...>
> Para: <[email protected]>
> Enviada em: sexta-feira, 20 de janeiro de 2006 17:12
> Assunto: [tuning] Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
>
>
> I've completed completed an implementation thats supports custom
> intonations as extremely high tuning resolutions. In addition the
> implementation supports realtime modulation to other tunings, or by an
> interval within the currently active tuning.
>
> Custom intonations can be loaded via file. Given 100 memory locations
> for internal tunings (each of 128 notes individually tunable for each
> memory location), what tunings are ideal for these preset memory
> location?
>
> Having played and performed with Lou Harrison and some other
famous
> gamlean musicians I will include some of their types of tunings.
>
> What specific tunings do you recommend?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> [email protected] - join the tuning group.
> [email protected] - leave the group.
> [email protected] - turn off mail from the group.
> [email protected] - set group to send daily digests.
> [email protected] - set group to send individual
emails.
> [email protected] - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________
> Yahoo! doce lar. Fa\ufffda do Yahoo! sua homepage.
> http://br.yahoo.com/homepageset.html
>
You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
[email protected] - join the tuning group.
[email protected] - leave the group.
[email protected] - turn off mail from the group.
[email protected] - set group to send daily digests.
[email protected] - set group to send individual emails.
[email protected] - receive general help information.
Yahoo! Groups Links
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! doce lar. Fa\ufffda do Yahoo! sua homepage.
http://br.yahoo.com/homepageset.html
From: Keenan Pepper (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
On 1/20/06, Cleverson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, David, I've started to learn and hear examples of just intonation
> a few months ago. What I simply want for the moment, although I've been
> become each time more interested in non-traditional tunings, is to play
> and/or hear my compositions and other pieces played with the same notes
> they are in 12-note equal temperament, but in just intonation. Those are
> simply pieces in traditional 12-tones scale.
That doesn't really make sense, because one note of 12-EDO can
correspond to many different notes of JI. Sometimes it can be very
difficult, if not impossible, to tell what JI relationships are
implied by 12-EDO harmony.
For example, take the 6/9 chord C-D-E-G-A. It is impossible to tune
this chord so that all the perfect fifths are just 3/2s and the major
third is 5/4. The use of this chord as a consonance assumes that the
syntonic comma (81/80) is tempered out.
Some extremely simple pieces like "Amazing Grace" can be tuned to JI
without any ambiguities or conflicts, but they are the exception, not
the rule.
Keenan
From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
--- In [email protected], Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@g...> wrote:
> That doesn't really make sense, because one note of 12-EDO can
> correspond to many different notes of JI.
I had a lot of fun retuning Schoenberg to this scale:
! bihexany.scl
Hole around [0, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2]
12
!
35/33
7/6
5/4
14/11
15/11
3/2
35/22
5/3
7/4
20/11
21/11
2
Of course for more normal-sounding results, a circulating temperament
makes a lot of sense.
From: dr_frost_2000 (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Gene,
> What's ideal depends on what tuning goal you are using to define
> ideal. What do you wish the tunings to achieve?
The tunings ideally should cover the basics and inspire people to explore
further on their own. Perhaps a mix of both utility and exotic tunings.
> Can you simply use every scale in the Scala scl directory, or is
> thousands of scales too many to handle?
As the tuning presets will be in object code the entire Scala library is far
to vast to include inside of it. However the entire scala library can be
utilized from a TUN file directory. TUN files can be easily be created from
Scala files in several ways.
> One basic thing which should be on the agenda are some of the
simpler equal divisions, such as 19, 22 and 31.
OK, 19TET, 22TET, 31TET and JI rational approximations of these I can
easily do.
Cheers,
David
--- In [email protected], "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...>
wrote:
>
> > Custom intonations can be loaded via file. Given 100 memory
locations
> > for internal tunings (each of 128 notes individually tunable for each
> > memory location), what tunings are ideal for these preset memory
> > location?
>
> What's ideal depends on what tuning goal you are using to define
> ideal. What do you wish the tunings to achieve?
>
> > What specific tunings do you recommend?
>
> Can you simply use every scale in the Scala scl directory, or is
> thousands of scales too many to handle? One basic thing which
should
> be on the agenda are some of the simpler equal divisions, such as 19,
> 22 and 31.
>
From: dr_frost_2000 (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Gene,
Great! I can put this JI scale into the instrument with minimal effort. The
format of this message is perfect.
Cheers,
David
--- In [email protected], "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@g...
> wrote:
>
> > That doesn't really make sense, because one note of 12-EDO can
> > correspond to many different notes of JI.
>
> I had a lot of fun retuning Schoenberg to this scale:
>
> ! bihexany.scl
> Hole around [0, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2]
> 12
> !
> 35/33
> 7/6
> 5/4
> 14/11
> 15/11
> 3/2
> 35/22
> 5/3
> 7/4
> 20/11
> 21/11
> 2
>
> Of course for more normal-sounding results, a circulating temperament
> makes a lot of sense.
>
From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
--- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> Great! I can put this JI scale into the instrument with minimal
effort. The
> format of this message is perfect.
What about a scale in cents, such as this one:
! dwarf12marv.scl
Marvelous dwarf: 1/4 kleismic tempered duodene
12
!
131.309694
200.054240
315.641287
431.228334
515.695527
631.282574
700.027120
815.614167
900.081360
1015.668407
1131.255454
1200.000000
! four tetrads/pentads representible by
! [[-1, 1, 2], [-1, 2, 2], [-1, 1, 1], [-2, 1, -1]]
This starts out with the Ellis duodene, and marvel tempers it to get
some 7-limit harmony into the picture.
From: Jon Szanto (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
David,
--- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...> wrote:
> As the tuning presets will be in object code the entire Scala
library is far
> to vast to include inside of it. However the entire scala library
can be
> utilized from a TUN file directory. TUN files can be easily be
created from
> Scala files in several ways.
Manuel at one point showed me a command from within Scala that
translated the *entire* .scl directory into *.tun files. I'll dig that
up and post it. Other comments regarding your project will be over at
MMM...
Cheers,
Jon
From: Jon Szanto (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
David,
--- In [email protected], "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
> Manuel at one point showed me a command from within Scala that
> translated the *entire* .scl directory into *.tun files. I'll dig that
> up and post it. Other comments regarding your project will be over at
> MMM...
In Scala, change to the directory where the .scl files are stored. Run
the following command in the command line:
@\scala22\cmd\archivetun
That should convert every Scala-format file into a TUN format file,
and you may then move them somewhere else.
Cheers,
Jon
From: dr_frost_2000 (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Gene,
This scale is fine. Mind if it is represented with high limit just intervals
such as the following?
0: 1/1 0.000
1: 3231/2995 131.310
2: 4261/3796 200.054
3: 6/5 315.641 minor 3rd
4: 4549/3546 431.228
5: 5225/3879 515.696
6: 36/25 631.283 classic diminished 5th
7: 1795/1198 700.027
8: 5571/3478 815.614
9: 4277/2543 900.081
10: 1077/599 1015.668
11: 4888/2543 1131.255
12: 2/1 1200.000 1 octave
Cheers,
David
--- In [email protected], "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > Gene,
> >
> > Great! I can put this JI scale into the instrument with minimal
> effort. The
> > format of this message is perfect.
>
> What about a scale in cents, such as this one:
>
> ! dwarf12marv.scl
> Marvelous dwarf: 1/4 kleismic tempered duodene
> 12
> !
> 131.309694
> 200.054240
> 315.641287
> 431.228334
> 515.695527
> 631.282574
> 700.027120
> 815.614167
> 900.081360
> 1015.668407
> 1131.255454
> 1200.000000
> ! four tetrads/pentads representible by
> ! [[-1, 1, 2], [-1, 2, 2], [-1, 1, 1], [-2, 1, -1]]
>
> This starts out with the Ellis duodene, and marvel tempers it to get
> some 7-limit harmony into the picture.
>
From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Sorry,
Can .TUN file be used for what?
Cheers,
Hudson
Jon Szanto escreveu:
> In Scala, change to the directory where the .scl files are stored. Run
> the following command in the command line:
>
> @\scala22\cmd\archivetun
>
> That should convert every Scala-format file into a TUN format file,
> and you may then move them somewhere else.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
--
Hudson Lacerda <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/>
*N\ufffdo deixe seu voto sumir! http://www.votoseguro.org/
*Ap\ufffdie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/
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From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
--- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> This scale is fine. Mind if it is represented with high limit just
intervals
> such as the following?
No, but it raises the question of why you want to. Does your system
work better with rational number ratios, and not work with cents?
From: Jon Szanto (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Hudson,
--- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
> Can .TUN file be used for what?
There are an increasing number of software instruments (synthesis,
hybrid/sampling, etc) that are using the .tun file format. Even if one
prefers to work with the native Scala .scl files, Scala can convert
them to .tun with no problem.
For a little background, you might want to see the excerpt posted at
the Scala site from an appendix to the soft instrument, LinPlug's
CronoX (this tutorial was written by Jacky Ligon):
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/Scala_TUN_Tutorial.pdf
Cheers,
Jon
From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-21)
Subject: Re: [tuning] .TUN format (was Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range)
Jon Szanto escreveu:
> There are an increasing number of software instruments (synthesis,
> hybrid/sampling, etc) that are using the .tun file format. Even if one
> prefers to work with the native Scala .scl files, Scala can convert
> them to .tun with no problem.
>
> For a little background, you might want to see the excerpt posted at
> the Scala site from an appendix to the soft instrument, LinPlug's
> CronoX (this tutorial was written by Jacky Ligon):
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/Scala_TUN_Tutorial.pdf
Thanks, Jon.
I tried "sending" a scale (eq 13 3) to "synth 112", and I saw a lot of
negative values in the .tun file.
Are the values given in cents relative to MIDI pitch 0 (8.1758Hz), in
one section as int, and in another section as double?
If so, I can easily add a ".tun" export to the program I am writting
these days ("microabc").
Would you list a few libre software that supports .tun format?
Thanks again,
Hudson
--
Hudson Lacerda <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/>
*N\ufffdo deixe seu voto sumir! http://www.votoseguro.org/
*Ap\ufffdie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/
== THE WAR IN IRAQ COSTS ==
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_______________________________________________________
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From: Jon Szanto (2006-01-22)
Subject: .TUN format (was Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range)
--- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
> I tried "sending" a scale (eq 13 3) to "synth 112", and I saw a lot of
> negative values in the .tun file.
I don't believe (eq 13 3) is a valid command for Scala.
> Are the values given in cents relative to MIDI pitch 0 (8.1758Hz), in
> one section as int, and in another section as double?
>
> If so, I can easily add a ".tun" export to the program I am writting
> these days ("microabc").
Considering both of these statements, I'd suggest you look into the
info in the following file:
http://www.mark-henning.de/files/tuning.zip
This is the developer of the Anamark synths and creator (I think?) of
the TUN format. In the zip you'll find a complete description of the
file format, as well as source code (which I believe has something to
do with implementation).
> Would you list a few libre software that supports .tun format?
You mean free, no-cost software? I'm not sure that there are any, but
I could be wrong. The instruments I happen to use that utilize the TUN
format (BigTick's Rhino, LinPlug's CronoX3 and Octopus, WusikStation)
are not freeware.
Cheers,
Jon
From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-22)
Subject: Re: [tuning] .TUN format
Hi Jon,
thank you for the response.
Jon Szanto escreveu:
> --- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
>
>>I tried "sending" a scale (eq 13 3) to "synth 112", and I saw a lot of
>>negative values in the .tun file.
>
>
> I don't believe (eq 13 3) is a valid command for Scala.
It is (without the parenthesis). eq 13 3/1 is the ET version of
Bohlen-Pierce scale. The generated cents values are correct.
[...]
> Considering both of these statements, I'd suggest you look into the
> info in the following file:
>
> http://www.mark-henning.de/files/tuning.zip
Thanks for the link.
>>Would you list a few libre software that supports .tun format?
>
>
> You mean free, no-cost software? I'm not sure that there are any, but
> I could be wrong. The instruments I happen to use that utilize the TUN
> format (BigTick's Rhino, LinPlug's CronoX3 and Octopus, WusikStation)
> are not freeware.
I mean "libre" in the sense of Debian Free Software Guidelines
compliance <http://www.debian.org/social_contract.en.html#guidelines>,
or software released according to Free Software Foundation definition of
free software <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html> (free as in
free speak, not free beer).
Can the softwares you've listed understand the .scl format too?
So far, microabc outputs scala and timidity++ tuning formats (besides
microtonal/chromatic/diatonic ABC symbols). Therefore, users of .tun
format can do conversion from .scl with scala. I plan upload a new
version of microabc this week.
Regards.
Hudson
--
Hudson Lacerda <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/>
*N\ufffdo deixe seu voto sumir! http://www.votoseguro.org/
*Ap\ufffdie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/
== THE WAR IN IRAQ COSTS ==
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_______________________________________________________
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From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-01-23)
Subject: Re: .TUN format
--- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
> So far, microabc outputs scala and timidity++ tuning formats (besides
> microtonal/chromatic/diatonic ABC symbols).
What is timidity++ tuning format?
From: Jon Szanto (2006-01-23)
Subject: Re: .TUN format
--- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
> It is (without the parenthesis). eq 13 3/1 is the ET version of
> Bohlen-Pierce scale. The generated cents values are correct.
Well, if those negative numbers are a bug or anamoly, you would need
to ask Manuel, the developer, as to what to do next.
> I mean "libre" in the sense of ...
Then I have no recommendations for you.
> Can the softwares you've listed understand the .scl format too?
Some, yes; there are other instruments that I use that utilize the
.scl format instead of .tun, but I didn't list them since you were
asking about .tun. It is a bit of a non-issue (at least for the time
being in my use) since I can convert scale formats with Scala.
> So far, microabc outputs scala and timidity++ tuning formats (besides
> microtonal/chromatic/diatonic ABC symbols). Therefore, users of .tun
> format can do conversion from .scl with scala. I plan upload a new
> version of microabc this week.
I know nothing about microabc (what platform is this for, *nix?), and
as for Timidity, I was under the assumption that this was a program
that had not been developed for a while. It is always frustrating when
a good program stops being supported, but also not a great place to
throw a lot of effort from a 3rd-party standpoint.
Cheers,
Jon
From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-23)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: .TUN format
Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> What is timidity++ tuning format?
The MIDI synthesizer timidity++ <http://timidity.sourceforge.net/> (see
also <http://timidity.s11.xrea.com/index.en.html>) can read a file
containing a list of 128 frequencies (one per line) to assign to each
MIDI pitch. The frequencies are represented in milihertz.
scala outputs such a frequency list when synth is set to 117:
set synth 117
send/file
Given a frequency file named "oldani" (there is no standard file
extension; scala uses ".tbl" I don't know why), one can play a MIDI file
in this tuning by running timidity in a shell:
timidity -Zoldani file.mid
To get a WAV file:
timidity -Zoldani file.mid -Ow -ofile.wav
and to get an OGG Vorbis file:
timidity -Zoldani file.mid -Ov -ofile.ogg
There are other output modes. I've read that timidity++ for Windows can
additionaly output MP3 (strange...).
Cheers,
Hudson
--
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From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-01-24)
Subject: Re: .TUN format
--- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
>
> Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
>
> > What is timidity++ tuning format?
>
> The MIDI synthesizer timidity++ <http://timidity.sourceforge.net/> (see
> also <http://timidity.s11.xrea.com/index.en.html>) can read a file
> containing a list of 128 frequencies (one per line) to assign to each
> MIDI pitch. The frequencies are represented in milihertz.
Isn't using the MIDI tuning standard easier?
From: Jon Szanto (2006-01-24)
Subject: Re: .TUN format
--- In [email protected], "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
> > The MIDI synthesizer timidity++ <http://timidity.sourceforge.net/>
(see
> > also <http://timidity.s11.xrea.com/index.en.html>) can read a file
> > containing a list of 128 frequencies (one per line) to assign to each
> > MIDI pitch. The frequencies are represented in milihertz.
>
> Isn't using the MIDI tuning standard easier?
Not to mention developing for a standard that is used by precisely one
application, one that doesn't look to have been updated in well over a
year. I'd put my efforts into something that was a bit more wide-spread.
Cheers,
Jon
From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-24)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: .TUN format
Jon Szanto escreveu:
> --- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
>
>>It is (without the parenthesis). eq 13 3/1 is the ET version of
>>Bohlen-Pierce scale. The generated cents values are correct.
>
>
> Well, if those negative numbers are a bug or anamoly, you would need
> to ask Manuel, the developer, as to what to do next.
No. The negative values correspond to pitches below 8.1758Hz, when
represented in cents relative to this frequency. They are OK.
>>So far, microabc outputs scala and timidity++ tuning formats (besides
>>microtonal/chromatic/diatonic ABC symbols). Therefore, users of .tun
>>format can do conversion from .scl with scala. I plan upload a new
>>version of microabc this week.
>
>
> I know nothing about microabc (what platform is this for, *nix?),
It is generator of macros for ABC music notation
(<http://abcplus.sf.net>, <http://abcnotation.org>).
I put it online just now (66kB):
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-2006-01-23.zip
The code consists of only one C file. I think you can compile it under
whatever system you want.
Here is a description, from "microabc.txt":
<<<<
microabc is a program which generate macros to represent microtonal
music in ABC notation. It is intended for use along the preprocessor
abcpp (for the programs refered to, see links below, at the end of
this file). The post-processed ABC code is suitable for abcm2ps
and/or abcMIDI. Other related tools are scala and timidity++.
The program reads commands and data, and outputs a list of macro
definitions. Macro replacements can be: chromatic, diatonic,
microtonal or literal.
Chromatic and diatonic modes are useful to generate MIDI files to be
re-tuned with the program scala or played by timidity++. They can also
be used to generate a mapping for standard staff notation
(tablature-wise approach).
Microtonal mode computes pitch quantisation relative to the standard
equal temperament (quarter-tones, eighth-tones, etc.), using
microtonal ABC accidentals for abc2midi or abcm2ps.
Literal mode uses given replacement text strings.
There is also a command to write into a file a list of frequencies,
for use by timidity++.
>>>>
> and
> as for Timidity, I was under the assumption that this was a program
> that had not been developed for a while. It is always frustrating when
> a good program stops being supported, but also not a great place to
> throw a lot of effort from a 3rd-party standpoint.
Really, the latest version of timidity++ (2.13.3) was released in
October 2004.
Cheers,
Hudson
--
Hudson Lacerda <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/>
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From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-24)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: .TUN format
Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> --- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
>
>>Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
>>
>>
>>>What is timidity++ tuning format?
>>
>>The MIDI synthesizer timidity++ <http://timidity.sourceforge.net/> (see
>>also <http://timidity.s11.xrea.com/index.en.html>) can read a file
>>containing a list of 128 frequencies (one per line) to assign to each
>>MIDI pitch. The frequencies are represented in milihertz.
>
>
> Isn't using the MIDI tuning standard easier?
Do you mean this?
http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning.shtml
I don't know MIDI to use those messages in a MIDI file, as a common MIDI
control. Is that really possible? I shall see it.
Thanks,
Hudson
--
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From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-25)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: .TUN format
Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> --- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
>
>>Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
>>
>>
>>>What is timidity++ tuning format?
>>
>>The MIDI synthesizer timidity++ <http://timidity.sourceforge.net/> (see
>>also <http://timidity.s11.xrea.com/index.en.html>) can read a file
>>containing a list of 128 frequencies (one per line) to assign to each
>>MIDI pitch. The frequencies are represented in milihertz.
>
>
> Isn't using the MIDI tuning standard easier?
No. MIDI tuning standard is synthesiser-dependent.
Quoting Seymour Shlien:
<<<<
This refers to a system exclusive command (sysex).
Midifile.c (included with the abcmidi package) has
some support for this command. (I know it can
read or skip over the command.)
As the name implies the command is exclusive to
a particular piece of hardware (eg. Roland synthesizer).
Other synthesizers (eg. TiMidity) may not interpret
these commands.
>>>>
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From: Graham Breed (2006-01-25)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: .TUN format
Hudson Lacerda wrote:
> No. MIDI tuning standard is synthesiser-dependent.
>
> Quoting Seymour Shlien:
>
> <<<<
> This refers to a system exclusive command (sysex).
> Midifile.c (included with the abcmidi package) has
> some support for this command. (I know it can
> read or skip over the command.)
>
> As the name implies the command is exclusive to
> a particular piece of hardware (eg. Roland synthesizer).
> Other synthesizers (eg. TiMidity) may not interpret
> these commands.
> >>>>
I don't know where that comes from, but it can't be about the MIDI
Tuning Standard. I didn't know of any Roland synthesizers that support
the MIDI Tuning Standard. A few constants aside, the MIDI Tuning
Standard is synthesizer-independent, provided the synthesizer supports
it -- which, unfortunately, most don't.
Graham
From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-01-25)
Subject: Re: .TUN format
--- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
>
> > Isn't using the MIDI tuning standard easier?
>
> No. MIDI tuning standard is synthesiser-dependent.
We were talking specifically about Timidity.
From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-25)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: .TUN format
Graham Breed escreveu:
> Hudson Lacerda wrote:
>>Quoting Seymour Shlien:
[snip]
> I don't know where that comes from, but it can't be about the MIDI
> Tuning Standard. I didn't know of any Roland synthesizers that support
> the MIDI Tuning Standard.
That example was hypothetical. There is a field to tha synthesiser ID in
Standard MIDI Tuning. What should be the value for no a specific one?
> A few constants aside, the MIDI Tuning
> Standard is synthesizer-independent, provided the synthesizer supports
> it -- which, unfortunately, most don't.
Would you send me, please, some small midi files that use Standard MIDI
Tuning and the respective scala files, so that I can analyse them and
test if any of my MIDI-player softwares supports that?
Please send them to: <<hfmlacerda, at, yahoo, dot, com, dot, br>>.
Thanks,
Hudson
--
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From: wallyesterpaulrus (2006-01-25)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
--- In [email protected], "Cleverson" <clever92000@y...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'd enjoy that some of those tunings were just intonations, since I'm
> looking for a software that tunes synthesisers in real time or
retunes
> MIDI files, in order to produce my compositions in just intonation
> without detuning at minor chords and modulations.
>
> Tks,
> Cleverson
If you're interested in adaptive JI, where the major and minor chords
are all tuned pure within themselves but the melodic intervals can be
irrational, then you should contact John deLaubenfels:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/d/jdelaub/jstudio.htm
If you're interested in strict JI, which uses 'simple' ratios all the
way through, though, you'll have to specify how to deal with various
comma issues, such as those mentioned here:
http://tonalsoft.com/enc/d/drift.aspx
Have you thought through these problems?
From: dr_frost_2000 (2006-01-26)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Wally,
Hey, great links thank you. The instrument I am about to release can do
the Erlich "shift" or "drift", though not through adaptive JI. The performer
has control of this, decisions about JI key modulation can be made in
realtime with a retention in the purity of the intervals.
Alot of the tunings currently being utilized in this instrument originate
from classic JI, historical tunings, Indonesian Gamelan, Indian shruti,
and assorted size temperments.
It is a performance instrument designed to be easy and flexible to use.
Working great, I'm just putting the finishing touches on the instrument
now.
Cheers,
David
--- In [email protected], "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Cleverson" <clever92000@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'd enjoy that some of those tunings were just intonations, since I'm
> > looking for a software that tunes synthesisers in real time or
> retunes
> > MIDI files, in order to produce my compositions in just intonation
> > without detuning at minor chords and modulations.
> >
> > Tks,
> > Cleverson
>
> If you're interested in adaptive JI, where the major and minor chords
> are all tuned pure within themselves but the melodic intervals can be
> irrational, then you should contact John deLaubenfels:
>
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/d/jdelaub/jstudio.htm
>
> If you're interested in strict JI, which uses 'simple' ratios all the
> way through, though, you'll have to specify how to deal with various
> comma issues, such as those mentioned here:
>
> http://tonalsoft.com/enc/d/drift.aspx
>
> Have you thought through these problems?
>
From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-26)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: .TUN format
Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> --- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
>
>>>Isn't using the MIDI tuning standard easier?
>>
>>No. MIDI tuning standard is synthesiser-dependent.
>
>
> We were talking specifically about Timidity.
So, here is the long answer I omitted before:
To obtain a tuned MIDI file from ABC notation, one has these options:
1) Generate a MIDI file with pitch bends:
Currently, the abc2midi's support for microtonal notation is
yet basic. In special, chords are output to a same channel,
then this tuned C major chord:
[C_14/100E^2/100G]
will not work. One have to write is as different voices:
C &\
_14/100E &\
^2/100G
2) Generate a MIDI file using a mapping (no pitch bends), and then:
2.1) Re-tune it with scala (or another tool), using pitch bends,
for instance:
scala --eq\ 13\ 3 --example/midi\ map1.mid\ map.mid --exit
else:
2.2) Play it with a synthesiser that supports scale definitions
(.scl files) or frequency maps (like .tun format),
in my case, timidity++:
timidity -Zmap map.mid
3) Generate a MIDI file with embedded frequency map, that is to say,
using Standard MIDI Tuning.
Given the possibilities above, here is my view:
If I use 1) or 2.1), the MIDI file will be correctly played in virtually
any MIDI player or synthesiser, and no additional file is required.
Option 2.2) requires an additional tuning file, and a dedicated player.
TiMidity++ is free software, supports soundfonts and can run on several
plataforms, hence it's a good choice for file sharing. It seems that
.TUN file format is not currently understood by any free software (it's
not "so" wide spread, otherwise it would be interest on it), and
therefore is not very suitable for file sharing.
Option 3) does without additional tuning file, but I don't know at wich
extent it is suppported by hardware and software synthesisers. If it is
well supported, I can ask Seymour to implement Standard MIDI Tuning in
abc2midi. But I would prefer improve the support for pitch bends first.
Once again, I would like to obtain some MIDI files using Standard MIDI
Tuning, so that I can try if any of my (software) synthesisers support it.
But, what is the "easier" option? One can count the number of pieces of
software required, the number of files involved, user preferences (for
instance, GUI or console software).
But there is more. With Standard (non-extended) MIDI, one is limited to:
- 128 pitches
- 16 channels
Pitch bends affects all notes in a channel, so, one cannot have more
that 16 simultaneous notes if each one requires a pitch bend. This can
be a problem with certain scales and/or many simultaneous voices.
By the other hand, loading a .scl, .tun or timidity frequency table will
normally affect all channels, but only (?) 128 pitches can be used. For
example, for a full 48ET scale, less than 3 octaves are available.
Beside, one cannot use 2 or more independent scales simultaneously, but
only merge them in a map with up to 128 pitches.
One can, of course, combine the two basic approaches: 128 frequencies +
pitch bends relative to them. That is a possibility I realized just now.
I will think about, it seems very interesting to implement in microabc.
So, even .TUN files will can be useful to me, and I can be one of the
first free software developers to implement .tun import/export in a free
software... 8-)
Regards.
Hudson
--
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From: Hudson Lacerda (2006-01-26)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: .TUN format
Gene,
Many thanks for the MIDI files.
I didn't know that Standard MIDI Tuning works with timidity++.
Here are the results:
- Both pmidi and kmid didn't work here. I think this is due to the
soundcard driver, not to the players.
- Timidity++ works fine with SMT.
I will ask Seymour Shlien to enable SysEx messages in abc2midi. For
timidity++, really using SMT is easier than using a frequencies table.
Cheers,
Hudson
Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> --- In [email protected], Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@y...> wrote:
>
>>>Isn't using the MIDI tuning standard easier?
>>
>>No. MIDI tuning standard is synthesiser-dependent.
>
>
> We were talking specifically about Timidity.
--
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From: dr_frost_2000 (2006-01-28)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Gene,
Certainly the instrument works with cents. With my question and revised
rational approximation, one item I was interested in gauging is the
importance of resolution to people. Given the difference in the tuning is
around 1/1000 of a cent in the JI version of the scale, in my view the
resolution is highly treasured in yours and others opinion.
Given much of my work is with gamelan, cents is a highly important
measurement in this instrument. The intervallic relation between
enharmonics, especially for bronze, benifits with an exacting tuning
measurement.
With split fundamentals and a plethora of enharmonics, how does one
represent this with a single JI ratio?
Bouncing ideas off people is creating quite an instrument as I now at this
moment put the finishing touches on the implementation.
Thank you for your input.
Cheers,
David
--- In [email protected], "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > Gene,
> >
> > This scale is fine. Mind if it is represented with high limit just
> intervals
> > such as the following?
>
> No, but it raises the question of why you want to. Does your system
> work better with rational number ratios, and not work with cents?
>
From: wallyesterpaulrus (2006-01-30)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
--- In [email protected], Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@g...>
wrote:
>
> On 1/20/06, Cleverson <clever92000@y...> wrote:
> > Well, David, I've started to learn and hear examples of just
intonation
> > a few months ago. What I simply want for the moment, although
I've been
> > become each time more interested in non-traditional tunings, is
to play
> > and/or hear my compositions and other pieces played with the same
notes
> > they are in 12-note equal temperament, but in just intonation.
Those are
> > simply pieces in traditional 12-tones scale.
>
> That doesn't really make sense, because one note of 12-EDO can
> correspond to many different notes of JI. Sometimes it can be very
> difficult, if not impossible, to tell what JI relationships are
> implied by 12-EDO harmony.
>
> For example, take the 6/9 chord C-D-E-G-A. It is impossible to tune
> this chord so that all the perfect fifths are just 3/2s and the
major
> third is 5/4. The use of this chord as a consonance assumes that the
> syntonic comma (81/80) is tempered out.
True, and you forgot to even mention the minor third E-G (6:5) and
major sixth C-A (5/3), additional reasons why you might prefer to
temper out the syntonic comma rather than tune to Pythagorean (a
chain of pure perfect fifths).
From: wallyesterpaulrus (2006-01-31)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Enharmonics are pairs like F#-Gb. Maybe you meant to say *inharmonic*
overtones?
--- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...>
wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> Certainly the instrument works with cents. With my question and
revised
> rational approximation, one item I was interested in gauging is the
> importance of resolution to people. Given the difference in the
tuning is
> around 1/1000 of a cent in the JI version of the scale, in my view
the
> resolution is highly treasured in yours and others opinion.
>
> Given much of my work is with gamelan, cents is a highly important
> measurement in this instrument. The intervallic relation between
> enharmonics, especially for bronze, benifits with an exacting
tuning
> measurement.
>
> With split fundamentals and a plethora of enharmonics, how does one
> represent this with a single JI ratio?
>
> Bouncing ideas off people is creating quite an instrument as I now
at this
> moment put the finishing touches on the implementation.
>
> Thank you for your input.
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000"
<dr_frost_2000@y...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Gene,
> > >
> > > This scale is fine. Mind if it is represented with high limit
just
> > intervals
> > > such as the following?
> >
> > No, but it raises the question of why you want to. Does your
system
> > work better with rational number ratios, and not work with cents?
> >
>
From: dr_frost_2000 (2006-01-31)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Wally,
Yeah inharmonic overtones as in inharmonicity. Put too many hours in
recently to pass the spelling bee. At least when I say "timbre" people
don't think a tree is about to fall down on their head.
Cheers,
David
--- In [email protected], "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> Enharmonics are pairs like F#-Gb. Maybe you meant to say
*inharmonic*
> overtones?
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Gene,
> >
> > Certainly the instrument works with cents. With my question and
> revised
> > rational approximation, one item I was interested in gauging is the
> > importance of resolution to people. Given the difference in the
> tuning is
> > around 1/1000 of a cent in the JI version of the scale, in my view
> the
> > resolution is highly treasured in yours and others opinion.
> >
> > Given much of my work is with gamelan, cents is a highly important
> > measurement in this instrument. The intervallic relation between
> > enharmonics, especially for bronze, benifits with an exacting
> tuning
> > measurement.
> >
> > With split fundamentals and a plethora of enharmonics, how does
one
> > represent this with a single JI ratio?
> >
> > Bouncing ideas off people is creating quite an instrument as I now
> at this
> > moment put the finishing touches on the implementation.
> >
> > Thank you for your input.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...
>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], "dr_frost_2000"
> <dr_frost_2000@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gene,
> > > >
> > > > This scale is fine. Mind if it is represented with high limit
> just
> > > intervals
> > > > such as the following?
> > >
> > > No, but it raises the question of why you want to. Does your
> system
> > > work better with rational number ratios, and not work with cents?
> > >
> >
>
From: dr_frost_2000 (2006-08-28)
Subject: Re: Ideal Tunings That Map to MIDI Range
Jon,
Thanks for that SCL to TUN command. I put it up on the website along
with the "preset" tuning lists:
http://www.omringen.com/tunings.html
Cheers,
David
--- In [email protected], "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> --- In [email protected],
"dr_frost_2000" <dr_frost_2000@y...> wrote:
> > As the tuning presets will be in object code the entire Scala
> library is far
> > to vast to include inside of it. However the entire scala library
> can be
> > utilized from a TUN file directory. TUN files can be easily be
> created from
> > Scala files in several ways.
>
> Manuel at one point showed me a command from within Scala that
> translated the *entire* .scl directory into *.tun files. I'll dig that
> up and post it. Other comments regarding your project will be over at
> MMM...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>