Topic: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

1 scales

Thread (14 messages)

From: Carl Lumma (2006-05-23)
Subject: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

Hi Aaron (and all),

Permit me, if you will, to recap what I think are the best
four 24-tone scales to come out of this thread (in order of
how well I think they'll fit your needs).  Have you had a
chance to try any of these?

! cons21.scl
!
  Set of intervals not exceeding 2/1 with num + den <= 21.
  24
!
  11/10
  10/9
  9/8
  8/7
  7/6
  6/5
  11/9
  5/4
  9/7
  4/3
  11/8
  7/5
  10/7
  3/2
  11/7
  8/5
  13/8
  5/3
  12/7
  7/4
  9/5
  11/6
  13/7
  2
!
! Also intervals of n*d < 111 (Gene Ward Smith, Tuning 66314).

! hemiwuer24.scl
!
 Hemiwurschmidt[24] in 229-tET tuning.
 24
!
 83.842795
 120.524017
 157.205240
 193.886463
 277.729258
 314.410480
 351.091703
 387.772926
 508.296943
 544.978166
 581.659389
 618.340611
 702.183406
 738.864629
 775.545852
 812.227074
 896.069869
 932.751092
 969.432314
 1006.113537
 1089.956332
 1126.637555
 1163.318777
 2
!

! garibaldi24.scl
!
  Garibaldi[24] in 94-tET tuning.
  24
!
 63.829787
 89.361702
 178.723404
 204.255319
 268.085106
 293.617021
 382.978723
 408.510638
 472.340426
 497.872340
 561.702128
 587.234043
 676.595745
 702.127660
 765.957447
 791.489362
 880.851064
 906.382979
 970.212766
 995.744681
 1085.106383
 1110.638298
 1174.468085
 2
!

! miracle24.scl
!
 Miracle[24] in 72-tET tuning.
 24
!
 33.33
 83.33
 116.67
 150.
 233.33
 266.67
 350.
 383.33
 466.67
 500.
 583.33
 616.67
 700.
 733.33
 816.67
 850.
 933.33
 966.67
 1000.
 1050.
 1083.33
 1116.67
 1166.67
 2
!

-Carl

From: Aaron Wolf (2006-05-24)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

Thanks, Carl!  I'll hope to get to really trying all this stuff real soon.

I'm in the process of making my controller keyboard more physically
accessible in my cramped little room / teaching studio.

I'm kinda keeping a list of everything to try and I'll let you know how
it goes.

Thanks again everyone for the help.

Oh, one more thought:
Since I've got some naysay about pitch bend, even used sparingly for
key changes, what about other options?

Would other forms of on-the-fly retuning make sense?

What I'm looking for is analagous to the following:

Say I only know how to play in the white keys in C Major,
so I use the keyboard's "transpose" option to play key changes
while still plunking just the white keys.

I want to have this 24-note scale that I use and have some similar
sort of ability to transpose while still plunking on the same 24
notes.

My initial thought was to use pitch bend, but maybe synths can
be triggered by a MIDI message to transpose or to base the fundamental
tuning ona a different note.

So any thoughts appreciated...  is pitch bend the best bet?
Is there other options?  Is this a dumb idea?

-Aaron

--- In [email protected], "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Aaron (and all),
> 
> Permit me, if you will, to recap what I think are the best
> four 24-tone scales to come out of this thread (in order of
> how well I think they'll fit your needs).  Have you had a
> chance to try any of these?
> 
> ! cons21.scl
> !
>   Set of intervals not exceeding 2/1 with num + den <= 21.
>   24
> !
>   11/10
>   10/9
>   9/8
>   8/7
>   7/6
>   6/5
>   11/9
>   5/4
>   9/7
>   4/3
>   11/8
>   7/5
>   10/7
>   3/2
>   11/7
>   8/5
>   13/8
>   5/3
>   12/7
>   7/4
>   9/5
>   11/6
>   13/7
>   2
> !
> ! Also intervals of n*d < 111 (Gene Ward Smith, Tuning 66314).
> 
> ! hemiwuer24.scl
> !
>  Hemiwurschmidt[24] in 229-tET tuning.
>  24
> !
>  83.842795
>  120.524017
>  157.205240
>  193.886463
>  277.729258
>  314.410480
>  351.091703
>  387.772926
>  508.296943
>  544.978166
>  581.659389
>  618.340611
>  702.183406
>  738.864629
>  775.545852
>  812.227074
>  896.069869
>  932.751092
>  969.432314
>  1006.113537
>  1089.956332
>  1126.637555
>  1163.318777
>  2
> !
> 
> ! garibaldi24.scl
> !
>   Garibaldi[24] in 94-tET tuning.
>   24
> !
>  63.829787
>  89.361702
>  178.723404
>  204.255319
>  268.085106
>  293.617021
>  382.978723
>  408.510638
>  472.340426
>  497.872340
>  561.702128
>  587.234043
>  676.595745
>  702.127660
>  765.957447
>  791.489362
>  880.851064
>  906.382979
>  970.212766
>  995.744681
>  1085.106383
>  1110.638298
>  1174.468085
>  2
> !
> 
> ! miracle24.scl
> !
>  Miracle[24] in 72-tET tuning.
>  24
> !
>  33.33
>  83.33
>  116.67
>  150.
>  233.33
>  266.67
>  350.
>  383.33
>  466.67
>  500.
>  583.33
>  616.67
>  700.
>  733.33
>  816.67
>  850.
>  933.33
>  966.67
>  1000.
>  1050.
>  1083.33
>  1116.67
>  1166.67
>  2
> !
> 
> -Carl
>

From: Carl Lumma (2006-05-24)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

> Thanks, Carl!  I'll hope to get to really trying all this
> stuff real soon.

Shure.  Do post back and tell us how you made out.

> Oh, one more thought:
> Since I've got some naysay about pitch bend, even used
> sparingly for key changes, what about other options?
> 
> Would other forms of on-the-fly retuning make sense?

Some synths support on-the-fly retuning of a single
scale to different roots.  Peter Frazer's Midicode,
for one, Kurzweil's K2000 (and up) synths supposedly
do, and several Emu synths (Proteus 2000 series if
memory serves) according to the microtonal synthesis
site.  I've seen mention of this feature re. several
VSTs too, on the MMM list.  Many of these may be
limited to 12-tone scales for the source
scale (Emu for one).

Even if the synth can't do it, any synth that takes
.tun files could be sent a command to switch .tun
files.  In this case you make up a set of .tun files
in advance, one for each key.  FTS and Scala may be
able to send such switch-o (as it were) commands.

> So any thoughts appreciated...  is pitch bend the best bet?
> Is there other options?  Is this a dumb idea?

Good idea, I recommend using a synth that supports
tunings, rather than pitch bends, if you want good
results.

-Carl

From: Jon Szanto (2006-05-25)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

--- In [email protected], "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> Some synths support on-the-fly retuning of a single
> scale to different roots.  [snip] 
> I've seen mention of this feature re. several
> VSTs too, on the MMM list.

Kontakt 2 has the ability with it's use of scripts. Though it is a
sampler, not a synth, this may work for Aaron. Robert S. wrote a small
application to load up to ten tunings at a time into K2 and be able to
switch tunings automatically. He writes about it on MMM:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/MakeMicroMusic/message/13047

...and has his app at this site:

http://www.12equalboresme.com/

Love the domain!

Cheers,
Jon

From: Aaron Wolf (2006-05-25)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

> 
> Even if the synth can't do it, any synth that takes
> .tun files could be sent a command to switch .tun
> files.  In this case you make up a set of .tun files
> in advance, one for each key.  FTS and Scala may be
> able to send such switch-o (as it were) commands.
> 

FTS?

If I use Digital Performer and Max Magic Microtuner, is there a way that
I can set up a MIDI signal to change .tun files?  Is it totally variable based
on support of the soft-instrument?

That basically describes what I'd like to do.  I suppose ideally I could use a
footswitch to change root notes, either by different .tun files, or by pitch bend
of a certain amount, or by any other means.  Worst case, if I have to set it
in the program not in real time, that'd work.  I didn't realize it was even
possible to set a command to change .tun files in the middle of a sequence.

I guess this stuff is really of fundamental importance before I select a scale
even...

-Aaron

From: Jon Szanto (2006-05-25)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

Aaron,

--- In [email protected], "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@...> wrote:
> FTS?

Fractal Tune Smithy. But nevermind, because...

> If I use Digital Performer and Max Magic Microtuner...

Aha - you are on the Mac platform, yes? But even if you *don't* have
an instrument that can change tunings on the fly, all you need do is
have multiple instances of a VST instrument on separate tracks, each
with a differing tuning loaded. When you want to modulate, just start
recording on a different track with the same sound/patch loaded. You
can even route them to the same bus so that it is an even mix and uses
identical fx, etc.

Cheers,
Jon

From: Carl Lumma (2006-05-25)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

> > Even if the synth can't do it, any synth that takes
> > .tun files could be sent a command to switch .tun
> > files.  In this case you make up a set of .tun files
> > in advance, one for each key.  FTS and Scala may be
> > able to send such switch-o (as it were) commands.
> > 
> 
> FTS?

Fractal Tune Smithy

> If I use Digital Performer and Max Magic Microtuner, is
> there a way that I can set up a MIDI signal to change .tun
> files?

I don't know about Max Magic, or much about DP, but all
you really need is a MIDI file with the appropriate sysex
commands in it and any MIDI player (DP certainly
qualifies).  Well, you need 24 such files (or however
many roots you want to support).

The best method is is to is to load the .tuns into your
synth in advance and only send bank-switch commands during
performance.  But if your synth doesn't support multiple
tuning banks, you can possibly send entire tun files over
sysex during performnce (depending on the speed of your
synth).

> Is it totally variable based on support of the
> soft-instrument?

It's based on the support of the synth (soft or hard).
Above that, it depends on what you want to do during
performance to cue the changes. . .

> I suppose ideally I could use a footswitch to change
> root notes,

Right then, you either need a synth with this feature
(root change based on MIDI notes on a specified channel,
which you assign to your foot controller) built in (and
it also must support 24-tone scales), or a separate
piece of software to send the tuning commands in response
to MIDI notes.

> or by pitch bend of a certain amount, or by any other
> means.

For 24-tone scales and polyphonic playing, pitch bend
tuning is going to require continuous bend sending as
you play (not just when you switch).  That's why such
systems are called 'MIDI relayers' -- they intercept
MIDI from your keyboard or score and add in the pitch-
bends in realtime.  Well, one hopes real time.  Pitch
bend tuning is great for quickly auditioning tunings,
but for a real performance system it just isn't likely
to cut it.

> Worst case, if I have to set it
> in the program not in real time, that'd work.

Pitch bends are more practical this way, but still
not ideal.

-Carl

From: Carl Lumma (2006-05-25)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

> Aha - you are on the Mac platform, yes? But even if you *don't* have
> an instrument that can change tunings on the fly, all you need do is
> have multiple instances of a VST instrument on separate tracks, each
> with a differing tuning loaded. When you want to modulate, just start
> recording on a different track with the same sound/patch loaded. You
> can even route them to the same bus so that it is an even mix and
> uses identical fx, etc.

Good point.  This one way around the 'doesn't support multiple
tuning banks' problem.

-Carl

From: Aaron Wolf (2006-05-25)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

--- In [email protected], "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > Aha - you are on the Mac platform, yes? But even if you *don't* have
> > an instrument that can change tunings on the fly, all you need do is
> > have multiple instances of a VST instrument on separate tracks, each
> > with a differing tuning loaded. When you want to modulate, just start
> > recording on a different track with the same sound/patch loaded. You
> > can even route them to the same bus so that it is an even mix and
> > uses identical fx, etc.
> 
> Good point.  This one way around the 'doesn't support multiple
> tuning banks' problem.
> 
> -Carl
>

An excellent suggestion!  The problem, and my dislike is switching tracks
when I key change, but then I remembered that in DP I can view multiple MIDI
tracks in the same piano scroll window, and simply change which one is the
write-to track...  (!)  That would do it!  I could simply change which track has
its input on and is the write-to track and otherwise view everything on one sheet
and it could all make sense.  The downside is only the additional preparation
and the having to run many instances of each synth in order for this to be
functional.  But it's a great option worth exploring!  Thanks!

-Aaron

From: Aaron Wolf (2006-05-25)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

> I don't know about Max Magic, or much about DP, but all
> you really need is a MIDI file with the appropriate sysex
> commands in it and any MIDI player (DP certainly
> qualifies).  Well, you need 24 such files (or however
> many roots you want to support).
> 

I get your point, but purely on the selfless idea of passing along
my ideas to inspire others...

I don't intend to have the roots have necessarily much in common
with the scale.  The idea is to have the roots be related keys such
that I could have ROOT progressions like 27/16-9/8-3/2-1/1 even
when 27/16 is NOT in my scale.  Likewise, a lot of scale notes are
notes I'd never use as a root.  I feel that musically the harmonic
function of a note and the root function of a note are totally different
and may or may note coincide or support the same note choices...

From: Carl Lumma (2006-05-25)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

> > I don't know about Max Magic, or much about DP, but all
> > you really need is a MIDI file with the appropriate sysex
> > commands in it and any MIDI player (DP certainly
> > qualifies).  Well, you need 24 such files (or however
> > many roots you want to support).
> 
> I get your point, but purely on the selfless idea of passing along
> my ideas to inspire others...
> 
> I don't intend to have the roots have necessarily much in common
> with the scale.  The idea is to have the roots be related keys such
> that I could have ROOT progressions like 27/16-9/8-3/2-1/1 even
> when 27/16 is NOT in my scale.  Likewise, a lot of scale notes are
> notes I'd never use as a root.  I feel that musically the harmonic
> function of a note and the root function of a note are totally
> different and may or may note coincide or support the same note
> choices...

Soitently.  Lots of great stuff can come out of modulating
one scale by another (the tonality diamond is one example).

-Carl

From: Aaron Wolf (2006-06-15)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

I was writing to someone outside the list, and summarized my musical goals a little more 
clearly than I think I did here.  Also, thanks to criticism from the list, I've adjusted my 
priorities a tad.  I figured it wouldn't hurt to post this here.  If anyone's interested in 
commenting, I'd appreciate it.  Thanks.

Essentially, I'm interested in having simple harmonic chords (at the *very least* to a 9-
limit, but higher the better within practical considerations).  And the roots of these chords 
can be categorized into two categories that interest me most:  those that have 1/1 in their 
harmonic series (such as 8/5, 16/9, etc.), and those that are pythagorean above 1/1 (such 
as for a VI-II-V-I progression using 27/16-9/8 etc).  Then I add consideration for what are 
really "non-harmonic tones" which are dissonant in effect and function by their relation to 
nearby consonances.  The non-harmonic tones don't need to be exactly a certain note.  By 
being just sharp and then flattening until resolving into the harmony, that's the effect, and 
exactly how much isn't important.  Both melodic, harmonic, and root (like a whole chord 
being just sharp or flat of a normal place) non-harmonic concerns seem to be appropriate 
domain of the pitch bender, though I'm really not completely certain about how to best do 
any of this.  I think that sums up what I want ideally, and I'm just struggling to figure out 
how to practically access this.

I discussed possibilities of limited scale numbers, like 24, and using pitch bend to change 
the root of the whole system.

I know what I want in my head, and I have no problem typing in note by note annoying 
stuff to get it all to work, meaning playing live performances isn't a concern right now.
My goal is simply two things: to be able to have something playable enough that I can go 
to my keyboard and fiddle around in order to try things and write stuff, and second to 
waste as little time as possible with setting the same pitch offsets again and again 
manually.  The better the overall workflow, the better the overall output will be.  But I 
know what I want in my head as far as note options, and I need to PLAY them on a 
keyboard or something in order to make sense of exactly how I want the music to go, and 
I want the fastest transition I can practically get from stuff in my head to actual sequenced 
music.

I'll leave it that open, and simply say that while I appreciate the value of tempering, I'm 
really not into tempering in this case.  I'm looking at strict JI.

Oh and the final thought:  I need a systematic thing that is flexible and really makes sense.  
I can't audition possibilities comfortably because everything is so different depending on 
the timbre of the audition sound!  So really, I'll need a broad enough system that I really 
don't feel I'm having to audition and make such compromises.  I need to be able to access 
10/9 and 9/8 for example.  If one is easier than the other, fine.  But it can't be one or the 
other.  I need a way to get both.  Maybe that means way more than 24-notes.

Has anyone heard of any sequencer that can rename notes on a piano roll?  Like a virtual 
version of putting little pieces of tape on each key of a keyboard to label the note?

-Aaron

P.S. Geez, I meant to just post the one paragraph.  Sorry, I guess I couldn't contain myself.

From: victorcerullo (2006-06-15)
Subject: Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

Aaron,

> If I use Digital Performer and Max Magic Microtuner, 
> is there a way that I can set up a MIDI signal to change .tun files?

Max Magic Microtuner allows you to keep up to five different
Microtuner windows open at the same time, each of which catering for a
different tuning if needed. If you configure a proper input channel
matrix (via Preferences window) so to have window 1 receiving only on
MIDI channel 1, window 2/channel 2 and so on, you can then use a
footswitch to swap between channels for example. You may be able to
configure your controller keyboard (also via software options on your
sequencer) in a "split channel" mode and play different tunings with
different sections on your keyboard. Possibilities are endless.

Regards,
Victor

From: Herman Miller (2006-06-16)
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Aaron Wolf's 24-tone search

Aaron Wolf wrote:

> Has anyone heard of any sequencer that can rename notes on a piano roll?  Like a virtual 
> version of putting little pieces of tape on each key of a keyboard to label the note?

I had a really old version of Cakewalk Home Studio that would let you 
rename notes. I found that Music Creator Pro24 2004 could still display 
the note labels if you edit the master.ins file by hand, but doesn't 
provide an interface for editing them. It also doesn't display note 
labels for DXi plugins, but only for MIDI outputs. But if you have some 
version of Cakewalk, check the master.ins file to see if it has a 
section labeled ".Note Names". There'll be a bunch of sections like 
[General MIDI Drums] and so on, with all the names for the percussion 
instruments.

[General MIDI Drums]
35=Acoustic Bass Drum
36=Bass Drum 1
....
80=Mute Triangle
81=Open Triangle

If you add your own note definitions, you can select them to display for 
a particular MIDI output from the Options/Instruments dialog box. Here's 
a partial example from when I was using a 14-note "superpelog" scale 
(the notation I was using is explained at 
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/superpelog.html):

[Superpelog-14]
4=A0
5=F0
6=K0
...
50=G3
51=L3
52=C3
...
124=M8
125=D8
126=I8
127=N8