Topic: ok - first attempt in a long time

1 scales

Thread (20 messages)

From: vaisvil (2008-11-15)
Subject: ok - first attempt in a long time

This is my first attempt to make micro music in Sonar
I took the cheap way out and did quarter tones 
one piano is tuned a quarter sharp - only 1:07 or so long

there is not microtonal usage all the way through
I was intentionally trying to fit in the quarter tones into the harmony

if you want to register and comment
http://soonlabel.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226730748/0#0

if you just want the silly file


http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/quarterpicnic.mp3

From: Kraig Grady (2008-11-15)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

reminds me of when you run a piano through a ring modulator.
quite liked it!


/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:  
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',




vaisvil wrote:
>
> This is my first attempt to make micro music in Sonar
> I took the cheap way out and did quarter tones
> one piano is tuned a quarter sharp - only 1:07 or so long
>
> there is not microtonal usage all the way through
> I was intentionally trying to fit in the quarter tones into the harmony
>
> if you want to register and comment
> http://soonlabel.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226730748/0#0 
> <http://soonlabel.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226730748/0#0>
>
> if you just want the silly file
>
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/quarterpicnic.mp3 
> <http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/quarterpicnic.mp3>
>
>

From: Carl Lumma (2008-11-15)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Hi Chris,

I liked the theme statements quite a lot.  When the
quartertone harmony came in, I must say, I think it
spoiled the piece for me.  Might I convince you to try
the piece in 22-ET also?

-Carl


At 10:44 PM 11/14/2008, you wrote:
>This is my first attempt to make micro music in Sonar
>I took the cheap way out and did quarter tones 
>one piano is tuned a quarter sharp - only 1:07 or so long
>
>there is not microtonal usage all the way through
>I was intentionally trying to fit in the quarter tones into the harmony
>
>if you want to register and comment
>http://soonlabel.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226730748/0#0
>
>if you just want the silly file
>
>http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/quarterpicnic.mp3

From: Chris Vaisvil (2008-11-15)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

sure, I like 22 EDO / ET myself quite a lot.

I haven't figured out a reasonable way to do it in Sonar yet - does anyone
have any hints?

I did 22 edo in a tracker once in a very difficult way - I created sines
wavs for an octave at the appropriate frequencies and then tuned replicate
guitar samples to the sine samples. I'll post a link.

The theme came from a children's song apparently popular in Oz.
There is a competition I entered that required using that theme by a guy
from Australia.
My entry was just to help him out to have more entries - obviously even a
good quarter tone piece has no chance.



On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>   Hi Chris,
>
> I liked the theme statements quite a lot. When the
> quartertone harmony came in, I must say, I think it
> spoiled the piece for me. Might I convince you to try
> the piece in 22-ET also?
>
> -Carl
>
>
> At 10:44 PM 11/14/2008, you wrote:
> >This is my first attempt to make micro music in Sonar
> >I took the cheap way out and did quarter tones
> >one piano is tuned a quarter sharp - only 1:07 or so long
> >
> >there is not microtonal usage all the way through
> >I was intentionally trying to fit in the quarter tones into the harmony
> >
> >if you want to register and comment
> >http://soonlabel.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226730748/0#0
> >
> >if you just want the silly file
> >
> >http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/quarterpicnic.mp3
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Chris Vaisvil (2008-11-15)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

I don't think I've run a piano thru a ring modulator but it sounds like a
great idea!!

Thanks, glad you liked it.

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>wrote:

>   reminds me of when you run a piano through a ring modulator.
> quite liked it!
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
>
> vaisvil wrote:
> >
> > This is my first attempt to make micro music in Sonar
> > I took the cheap way out and did quarter tones
> > one piano is tuned a quarter sharp - only 1:07 or so long
> >
> > there is not microtonal usage all the way through
> > I was intentionally trying to fit in the quarter tones into the harmony
> >
> > if you want to register and comment
> > http://soonlabel.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226730748/0#0
> > <http://soonlabel.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226730748/0#0>
> >
> > if you just want the silly file
> >
> > http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/quarterpicnic.mp3
> > <http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/quarterpicnic.mp3>
> >
> >
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Carl Lumma (2008-11-15)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

At 01:41 PM 11/15/2008, you wrote:
>sure, I like 22 EDO / ET myself quite a lot.
>
>I haven't figured out a reasonable way to do it in Sonar yet - does anyone
>have any hints?

I'd use Sonar to host an instance of pianoteq.  Then enter MIDI on
the piano roll.  Consecutive bars on the piano roll will give you
consecutive MIDI notes, which will give you consecutive 22-ET degrees
if you simply load a 22-ET Scala .scl file into pianoteq.

Pianoteq is a bit pricey, but then again, so is Sonar.  I have a
crack of Sonar, but generally prefer REAPER.  I think pianoteq has
a free trial, and it's a small download and easy to install, and
has a stand-alone mode with built-in MIDI->WAV rendering, on-screen
keyboard, and... well, you can tell I like pianoteq.

-Carl

From: Chris Vaisvil (2008-11-16)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

I'm looking into fractal tune smithy - I'd like to use all of my Garritan in
microtuning.

This also looks interesting:

http://www.madtracker.org/plugins.php?category=Instrument&subcategory=Synth+(Hybrid)

bottom of the page is a microtonal synth.

Here is a link to my 22 EDO piece composed in 98 I think it was - the one I
mentioned with the sines as reference.

http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/22.mp3

clever title eh?

The guitar sample is so-so - certainly not good by today's standards.

It was really bizarre to compose - and I'm not completely sure it is pure 22
edo

It seemed to me that the tri-tone was still the half way point for the
octave
Most of the runs are of the same note but different samples

The music module (XM) is here if anyone wants to decipher it
http://clones.soonlabel.com/mods/22c.zip

I got one more I've done - in 36 edo with piano samples.


On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>   At 01:41 PM 11/15/2008, you wrote:
> >sure, I like 22 EDO / ET myself quite a lot.
> >
> >I haven't figured out a reasonable way to do it in Sonar yet - does anyone
> >have any hints?
>
> I'd use Sonar to host an instance of pianoteq. Then enter MIDI on
> the piano roll. Consecutive bars on the piano roll will give you
> consecutive MIDI notes, which will give you consecutive 22-ET degrees
> if you simply load a 22-ET Scala .scl file into pianoteq.
>
> Pianoteq is a bit pricey, but then again, so is Sonar. I have a
> crack of Sonar, but generally prefer REAPER. I think pianoteq has
> a free trial, and it's a small download and easy to install, and
> has a stand-alone mode with built-in MIDI->WAV rendering, on-screen
> keyboard, and... well, you can tell I like pianoteq.
>
> -Carl
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Carl Lumma (2008-11-16)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Chris wrote:

>Here is a link to my 22 EDO piece composed in 98 I think it was - the
>one I mentioned with the sines as reference.
>
>http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/22.mp3
>
>clever title eh?

:)

Again I like the material, and this time I think the microtonalism 
serves very well.

>It was really bizarre to compose - and I'm not completely sure it is
>pure 22 edo
>It seemed to me that the tri-tone was still the half way point for the
>octave

Well, in 22, and any even-numbered EDO, there will be the same
half-octave tritone as we're used to in 12.  Probably you know
that and you menat something else here.

>Most of the runs are of the same note but different samples

In the spirit of recent discussions: I notice you're doing some
neat stereo stuff in this one.

>I got one more I've done - in 36 edo with piano samples.

Hate to be a tuning dick, but is there any particular reason you
passed over 31 and 34?  Because like, I guess it's time to admit
that I'm an advocate of just intonation and tunings that closely
approximate it.  That's not to say I think all music should use
consonant chords -- I like microtonal music in general too.  But
it seems there's already quite a lot of it available, compared to
just or nearly-just stuff -- especially in the multiples of 12.
And, if you just want microtonalism, any big EDO should do it
about as well as any other, including 31 and 34.  But only certain
EDOs also provide the capacity for smooth harmony.

There, I won't bug you again.

-Carl

From: Carl Lumma (2008-11-16)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

>Here is a link to my 22 EDO piece composed in 98 I think it was

'99 according to the ID3 tags.  :)

-Carl

From: Chris Vaisvil (2008-11-16)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Quick reply Carl,

36 edo because it was easy to implement.

The Tracker I was using also had a slide-to-note function that allowed me to
divide a semitone into 3 parts.
The slides sound sloppy to me in places but it was much more reasonable to
compose with. Also I played with the major/minor chord as well in the
composition - which I think had a positive effect on the microtonality.

My tools were very crude and not ment for microtonality. I hope FTS will
solve that.

I'll post it later - right now I actually have time to play my wife's new
strat.

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>   Chris wrote:
>
> >Here is a link to my 22 EDO piece composed in 98 I think it was - the
> >one I mentioned with the sines as reference.
> >
> >http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/22.mp3
> >
> >clever title eh?
>
> :)
>
> Again I like the material, and this time I think the microtonalism
> serves very well.
>
> >It was really bizarre to compose - and I'm not completely sure it is
> >pure 22 edo
> >It seemed to me that the tri-tone was still the half way point for the
> >octave
>
> Well, in 22, and any even-numbered EDO, there will be the same
> half-octave tritone as we're used to in 12. Probably you know
> that and you menat something else here.
>
> >Most of the runs are of the same note but different samples
>
> In the spirit of recent discussions: I notice you're doing some
> neat stereo stuff in this one.
>
> >I got one more I've done - in 36 edo with piano samples.
>
> Hate to be a tuning dick, but is there any particular reason you
> passed over 31 and 34? Because like, I guess it's time to admit
> that I'm an advocate of just intonation and tunings that closely
> approximate it. That's not to say I think all music should use
> consonant chords -- I like microtonal music in general too. But
> it seems there's already quite a lot of it available, compared to
> just or nearly-just stuff -- especially in the multiples of 12.
> And, if you just want microtonalism, any big EDO should do it
> about as well as any other, including 31 and 34. But only certain
> EDOs also provide the capacity for smooth harmony.
>
> There, I won't bug you again.
>
> -Carl
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Carl Lumma (2008-11-16)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Chris wrote:

>Quick reply Carl,
>
>36 edo because it was easy to implement.

Ah, gotcha.  Well, don't forget my pianoteq suggestion.

Actually, doesn't Sonar come with some of the Cakewalk
synths, z3ta+, dimension, and rapture?  I think all 3
support Scala files so you can do what I described with
pianoteq.

If you have Garritan and are interested in FTS, don't
miss this excellent tutorial:
http://www.robertinventor.com/software/tunesmithy/help/FTS-HowTo-Files/MicroOrchestra.html
It also shows you how to hook Finale into the mix.

-Carl

From: Chris Vaisvil (2008-11-16)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Oh wow, I didn't know they supported retuning!
I've been doing a lot of recorded performance and / or sample based work
recently

I've hardly used any of the vsti packaged with my Sonar 7 upgrade.
(I got Sonar 2.2 also)

Thanks for the tip! I also loaded Scala at one point but was impressed with
the complexity you could say,
But I should still have the example scales.

Thanks for the tip!

Chris

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>   Chris wrote:
>
> >Quick reply Carl,
> >
> >36 edo because it was easy to implement.
>
> Ah, gotcha. Well, don't forget my pianoteq suggestion.
>
> Actually, doesn't Sonar come with some of the Cakewalk
> synths, z3ta+, dimension, and rapture? I think all 3
> support Scala files so you can do what I described with
> pianoteq.
>
> If you have Garritan and are interested in FTS, don't
> miss this excellent tutorial:
>
> http://www.robertinventor.com/software/tunesmithy/help/FTS-HowTo-Files/MicroOrchestra.html
> It also shows you how to hook Finale into the mix.
>
> -Carl
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Carl Lumma (2008-11-16)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

>Thanks for the tip! I also loaded Scala at one point but was impressed with
>the complexity you could say, But I should still have the example scales.
>
>Thanks for the tip!
>
>Chris

Right, well equal temperaments are really easy.  Here's the
one for 22

! 22.scl
!
 22-tone equal temperament
 22
!
 54.54545
 109.09091
 163.63636
 218.18182
 272.72727
 327.27273
 381.81818
 436.36364
 490.90909
 545.45455
 600.00000
 654.54545
 709.09091
 763.63636
 818.18182
 872.72727
 927.27273
 981.81818
 1036.36364
 1090.90909
 1145.45455
 2/1
!

Just copy and paste that into a text editor and save it as
"22.scl".  Then you should be able to load it into your synths.

-Carl

From: Kraig Grady (2008-11-16)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

three other interesting 22 tone scales can be found here
http://anaphoria.com/trans22.PDF


/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:  
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',




Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> >Thanks for the tip! I also loaded Scala at one point but was 
> impressed with
> >the complexity you could say, But I should still have the example scales.
> >
> >Thanks for the tip!
> >
> >Chris
>
> Right, well equal temperaments are really easy. Here's the
> one for 22
>
> ! 22.scl
> !
> 22-tone equal temperament
> 22
> !
> 54.54545
> 109.09091
> 163.63636
> 218.18182
> 272.72727
> 327.27273
> 381.81818
> 436.36364
> 490.90909
> 545.45455
> 600.00000
> 654.54545
> 709.09091
> 763.63636
> 818.18182
> 872.72727
> 927.27273
> 981.81818
> 1036.36364
> 1090.90909
> 1145.45455
> 2/1
> !
>
> Just copy and paste that into a text editor and save it as
> "22.scl". Then you should be able to load it into your synths.
>
> -Carl
>
>

From: Chris Vaisvil (2008-11-17)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Thanks Kraig - I saved the PDF

Some neat instrument ideas in it!

Chris

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 6:32 PM, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>wrote:

>   three other interesting 22 tone scales can be found here
> http://anaphoria.com/trans22.PDF
>
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> Carl Lumma wrote:
> >
> > >Thanks for the tip! I also loaded Scala at one point but was
> > impressed with
> > >the complexity you could say, But I should still have the example
> scales.
> > >
> > >Thanks for the tip!
> > >
> > >Chris
> >
> > Right, well equal temperaments are really easy. Here's the
> > one for 22
> >
> > ! 22.scl
> > !
> > 22-tone equal temperament
> > 22
> > !
> > 54.54545
> > 109.09091
> > 163.63636
> > 218.18182
> > 272.72727
> > 327.27273
> > 381.81818
> > 436.36364
> > 490.90909
> > 545.45455
> > 600.00000
> > 654.54545
> > 709.09091
> > 763.63636
> > 818.18182
> > 872.72727
> > 927.27273
> > 981.81818
> > 1036.36364
> > 1090.90909
> > 1145.45455
> > 2/1
> > !
> >
> > Just copy and paste that into a text editor and save it as
> > "22.scl". Then you should be able to load it into your synths.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> >
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Chris Vaisvil (2008-11-17)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Ok,

z3ta+ had a whole bunch of scala files - and this I believe uses normal 22
edo

http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/barrycompo2.mp3

The link is to the same piano piece run through z3ta+ with 22 edo loaded.
(19 edo was incredibly hard to listen to but without a doubt proved it was
working)

One thing that happened was this apparent register widening - not what I
expected.
I would have guessed compression would have occurred.

To me this sounds like noise... but hey - its a proof concept.
And - give me a way to start composing with other tunings in a fashion I'm
used to.

it was 5-22.scl I think.

I'll try your scale and see it's different - this is going to be really
cool!

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>   >Thanks for the tip! I also loaded Scala at one point but was impressed
> with
> >the complexity you could say, But I should still have the example scales.
> >
> >Thanks for the tip!
> >
> >Chris
>
> Right, well equal temperaments are really easy. Here's the
> one for 22
>
> ! 22.scl
> !
> 22-tone equal temperament
> 22
> !
> 54.54545
> 109.09091
> 163.63636
> 218.18182
> 272.72727
> 327.27273
> 381.81818
> 436.36364
> 490.90909
> 545.45455
> 600.00000
> 654.54545
> 709.09091
> 763.63636
> 818.18182
> 872.72727
> 927.27273
> 981.81818
> 1036.36364
> 1090.90909
> 1145.45455
> 2/1
> !
>
> Just copy and paste that into a text editor and save it as
> "22.scl". Then you should be able to load it into your synths.
>
> -Carl
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Carl Lumma (2008-11-17)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Chris wrote:

> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/barrycompo2.mp3
>
>The link is to the same piano piece run through z3ta+ with 22 edo loaded.
>(19 edo was incredibly hard to listen to but without a doubt proved it was
>working)
>
>One thing that happened was this apparent register widening - not what
>I expected.  I would have guessed compression would have occurred.

?

>To me this sounds like noise... but hey - its a proof concept.

Ja.

>I'll try your scale and see it's different - this is going to be really
>cool!

You can also find the file you used on your hard drive, open
it in a text editor, and visually compare to what I posted.

-Carl

From: Chris Vaisvil (2008-11-17)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Excuse my ignorance of scala and scala files

Can I devise and use non-octave scales?
Arbitrary frequency scales?
Harmonic series based scales?
and would I be correct that this group (or the tuning list) has quite a few
scala files available?

Thanks,

Chris



By register expansion I mean the music seemed to map to a wider set of
registers (octaves) than originally written.
It could be the instrument though - my ears are not the best.,

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 10:15 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>   Chris wrote:
>
> > http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/barrycompo2.mp3
> >
> >The link is to the same piano piece run through z3ta+ with 22 edo loaded.
> >(19 edo was incredibly hard to listen to but without a doubt proved it was
> >working)
> >
> >One thing that happened was this apparent register widening - not what
> >I expected. I would have guessed compression would have occurred.
>
> ?
>
> >To me this sounds like noise... but hey - its a proof concept.
>
> Ja.
>
> >I'll try your scale and see it's different - this is going to be really
> >cool!
>
> You can also find the file you used on your hard drive, open
> it in a text editor, and visually compare to what I posted.
>
> -Carl
>
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From: Graham Breed (2008-11-17)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

2008/11/17 Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>:
> Excuse my ignorance of scala and scala files
>
> Can I devise and use non-octave scales?

Yes

> Arbitrary frequency scales?

Yes

> Harmonic series based scales?

Yes

> and would I be correct that this group (or the tuning list) has quite a few
> scala files available?

There are a few thousand here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/downloads.html

(scroll down)


                      Graham

From: Carl Lumma (2008-11-17)
Subject: Re: [MMM] ok - first attempt in a long time

Chris wrote:

>Excuse my ignorance of scala and scala files

The key thing is that the file is a list of the *intervals*
in a scale (not pitches).

Each interval in a file can be in cents or as a fraction.
If it has a period, it'll be read as cents.  If it has
a slash, a fraction.

>Can I devise and use non-octave scales?

The lines in the file are simply repeated over and over
across the available MIDI notes.  So the last interval in
the file becomes the "octave".  Usually it's 2/1 so it's a
real octave.  But it can be anything.

>Arbitrary frequency scales?

So I think you're asking about pitches.  Along with a Scala
file, you need to know to things to tune an instrument:

1. "middle C" -- which MIDI note number should the first
interval in the Scala file be built up from?

2. pitch standard -- how many Hz. should this MIDI note
vibrate at?

I believe most synths default to 1. = 60 and 2. = 261.625Hz
Some may allow you to change that.

>Harmonic series based scales?

Use the slashes, m'boy.

>and would I be correct that this group (or the tuning list) has
>quite a few scala files available?

There are almost 4,000 of them here:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/scales.zip

-Carl