Topic: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

1 scales

Thread (13 messages)

From: Margo Schulter (2006-05-11)
Subject: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

Hello, everyone, and Mohajeri Shahin's piece in 24-EDL (that is, an
"equal division of length" or arithmetic division based on the
integers 24-12) nicely illustrates the possibilities of an orchestral
kind of style -- as I might call it -- based on this style of just
intonation.

The opening has an energetic motive that might suggest Holst's _The
Planets_ as one free association: the style is exciting, with brief
rhythmic "cells" moving the music forward in an oscillating texture, a
bit like Perotin and his school in Europe around 1200.

Although I haven't heard the music of Elsie Hamilton based on a
similar kind of arithmetic series as described by Kathleen
Schlesinger, I wonder if it's anything like this.

What Mohajeri Shahin's piece suggests is that indeed a 20th-century
orchestral style may sometimes be nicely transported and adapted to an
arithmetic series tuning like 24:23:22:21:20:19:18:17:16:15:14:13:12
here.

Please let me lend my warm encouragement, and also comment that I
enjoy the mixture of timbres in this piece.

Peace and love,

Margo

From: Mohajeri Shahin (2006-05-14)
Subject: re:Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

Hi all and dear margo

 

Thank you very much for your encouragment . although I compose like year
1200 , but may be I had a life in that period of time , composing music
and may had a life in time of ptolemy and now re-introducing edl system.

about 1-2 years has passed from my subscribtion to these 2 great yahoo
groups ( MMM and tuning ) . I have learned many things from all and
tried to find my way.

These days I'm thinking about modes in 24-edl and 12-ado. Last night I
was testing something , I found that we can have 3 different system due
to size of their adjusent steps :

1- systems with equal steps = edo system

2- systems with un-equal steps:

  Like Edl system and systems with different algorithm, = - Steps with
Increasing sizes

- Steps with decreasing sizes=like Ado system and systems with different
algorithm.

So we can have 2 region for equalness and unequalness of systems steps
which their border is edos. Steps of equal-degree edl and ado systems
are the same size but in reverse order.

I talked about modes in 24-edl and 12-ado , some of my tests shows good
sounding.

Edl with cardinality as k*12 show tetrachord with different steps.in
24-edl , the first has (cardinality/4) steps and second ,
(cardinality/6) steps.

A new system which I found is ADL ( arithematic divisions of length )
wich is a subset of edl.

But dear margo,about your work on talai ,

Can you tell me more about pepperment temperament , although I believe
that temperament related to edl systems in lutes are kinds of irregular
.

I refretted my setar in 24-edl and saw that for string tuned fourth or
fifth apart , we have 2 different trend of steps starting from 4/3 or
3/2 . this is also seen in different tunings of strings :

 

1/1  :  24/23  12/11  8/7   6/5   24/19  4/3   24/17  3/2   8/5   12/7
24/13  2/1

4/3  : 18/17  9/8   6/5   9/7   18/13  3/2   36/23  18/11 12/7  9/5
36/19  2/1

24/17: 17/16  17/15  17/14  17/13 17/12  34/23  17/11  34/21  17/10
34/19  17/9   2/1

3/2  : 16/15  8/7   16/13  4/3   32/23  16/11  32/21  8/5   32/19  16/9
32/17  2/1

 

So adapting these to real orchestral style is very difficult !!!

Thanks 

 

Shaahin Mohaajeri

 

Tombak Player & Researcher , Composer

My web site : http://240edo.tripod.com/index.html
<blocked::http://240edo.tripod.com/index.html> 

My tombak musics in Rhythmweb: www.rhythmweb.com/gdg

My articles in Harmonytalk:

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html

My article in DrumDojo:

www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm

My musics in Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

- A composition based on a folk melody of Shiraz region, in shur-dastgah
by Mohajeri Shahin <http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/shur.mp3>  

- An experiment in Iranian homayun and chahargah modes by Mohajeri
Shahin <http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/homayun.mp3>  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Margo Schulter (2006-05-17)
Subject: Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

Dear Shaahin,

Please let me try very briefly here to answer your question about
Peppermint, and to say that your comment about composing in the style
of the year1200 was very humorous to me because often that's very much
what I'm doing. This is a great era of classical music, both Near
Eastern and European.

> Can you tell me more about pepperment temperament , although I believe
> that temperament related to edl systems in lutes are kinds of
> irregular .

First, please let me be sure that I've clarified that Peppermint is a
temperament rather different than the kind of just EDL system you are
discussing in terms of fretting ratios, although it has close
approximations of EDL ratios such 14:13:12 or 13:12:11.

The best way for me to answer your question would be to post some new
music in Peppermint here, and especially music in a maye like Shur or
a Maqaam such as Bayyati or Husayni, say.

That's just what I want to do, and in the meantime I can give some
links to articles that I've also posted on the newsgroup
rec.music.early regarding Peppermint and classic 13th-14th century
music, both Near Eastern and European:

    <http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/rme1p4pe.txt>
    <http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/rme1t4pm.txt>

There's also a quick point I would make about EDL or arithmetic
tunings: John Chalmers investigated this, and pointed out that while
people like Kathleen Schlesinger and Elsie Hamilton focused on an
arithmetic series, Ptolemy and other Greek theorists seem very focused
on tetrachords. John therefore suggested the use of "triaphonic"
scales, for example, which combine the two approaches, like this
17-note example from the Scala archives:

! triaphonic_17.scl
!
17-tone Triaphonic Cycle, conjunctive form on 4/3, 7/6 and 9/7
 17
!
 28/27
 14/13
 28/25
 7/6
 28/23
 14/11
 4/3
 112/81
 56/39
 112/75
 14/9
 21/13
 42/25
 7/4
 42/23
 21/11
 2/1

One big caution: I want to be very careful about discussing tunings of
instruments I haven't played myself. That's why I might leave
questions about string frettings to people who have actually tuned or
played them.

Again, my best response to many of your questions is to record and
post some music -- and I hope to do so soon.

Peace and love,

Margo

From: Keenan Pepper (2006-05-17)
Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

On 5/16/06, Margo Schulter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear Shaahin,
>
> Please let me try very briefly here to answer your question about
> Peppermint, and to say that your comment about composing in the style
[...]

Hey! Is that named after me? Is it that golden ratio reverse meantone thing?

Keenan Pepper

From: Margo Schulter (2006-05-17)
Subject: Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

>  From: "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...>

> Hey! Is that named after me? Is it that golden ratio
> reverse meantone thing?

> Keenan Pepper

Dear Keenan,

Please let me happily confirm that the answer is indeed
"yes": Peppermint is simply two 12-note chains of your
"other Noble Fifth" regular temperament (about 704.096
cents), each with an Eb-G# pattern, at a distance of about
58.680 cents, so that some pure 7:6 minor thirds result.
(As a p.s., I've appended a Scala file.)


Here I might explain for others that you proposed the
regular temperament on the Tuning List in September 2000,
and I immediately took it up with great enthusiasm, Kraig
Grady then observing that this temperament had been
identified as a point of interest on Erv Wilson's Scale
Tree. Therefore I call the basic regular temperament the
"Wilson/Pepper temperament."

In June of 2000 or so, I got the idea of two 12-note chains
yielding some pure 7:6 thirds, and it turned out this
arrangement produced a fine 2-3-7-9-11-13 JI approximation.

Again, here are two articles originally posted to Usenet's
rec.music.early on Peppermint for European and Near Eastern
styles:

    <http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/rme1p4pe.txt>
    <http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/rme1t4pm.txt>

I'm preparing some new music in Peppermint, but in the
meantime here's a piece in my typical classical medieval
European style in MIDI or ogg:

<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/coop020.mid>
<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/coop001.ogg>

and another piece in this kind of style taking advantage of
some sonorities like a near-7:9:11 in two MIDI registrations:

<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/o_europ08.mid>
<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/o_europ09.mid>

Also, I find Peppermint a wonderful temperament for styles
inspired by Near Eastern music -- although I'd be interested
in the opinions of people for whom this music is a "first
language." Here's a setting that might fit the Persian
Dastgah Shur or the Arabic Maqaam Husayni:

<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/huscond6.mid>

Here the basic scale, with C4 as middle C and an asterisk *
indicating a note on the upper keyboard raised by 58.68
cents, is:

    E   F*   G   A   B   C*  D   E
    0  138  287 496 704 842 992 1200

This approximates 1/1-13/12-13/11-4/3-3/2-13/8-39/22-2/1.

Please let me add that generally I'd rather post actual
keyboard performances rather than MIDI files, and am getting
ready to record some Peppermint pieces.

It's appropriate in this thread warmly to thank Shaahin for
discussions about Persian music and intonational systems,
including Peppermint as one possibility. My recordings of
live keyboard pieces will, I hope, provide an opportunity to
share some of the aspects of these discussions in a context
of actual music -- a gift which, as Aaron and I have just
noted, Shaahin has most generously and vibrantly bestowed on
our group.

Peace and love, with many thanks,

Margo

P.S. By the way, here's a Scala file:

! peprmint.scl
!
Peppermint 24: Wilson/Pepper apotome/limma=Phi, 2 chains spaced for pure 7:6
 24
!
 58.679693 cents
 128.669246 cents
 187.348938 cents
 208.191213 cents
 7/6
 287.713180 cents
 346.392873 cents
 416.382426 cents
 475.062119 cents
 495.904393 cents
 554.584086 cents
 624.573639 cents
 683.253332 cents
 704.095607 cents
 762.775299 cents
 832.764852 cents
 891.444545 cents
 912.286820 cents
 970.966512 cents
 991.808787 cents
 1050.488479 cents
 1120.478033 cents
 1179.157725 cents
 2/1

From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-05-17)
Subject: Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

--- In [email protected], Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>
wrote:

> Please let me happily confirm that the answer is indeed
> "yes": Peppermint is simply two 12-note chains of your
> "other Noble Fifth" regular temperament (about 704.096
> cents), each with an Eb-G# pattern, at a distance of about
> 58.680 cents, so that some pure 7:6 minor thirds result.
> (As a p.s., I've appended a Scala file.)

Since we were discussing 46-et here a while back, let me add that
the 13-limit linear temperament with a fifth of about this size is
what Herman Miller dubbed "leapday", and it's another way to play for
anyone still interested in 46.

From: Keenan Pepper (2006-05-18)
Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

On 5/17/06, Gene Ward Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
> Since we were discussing 46-et here a while back, let me add that
> the 13-limit linear temperament with a fifth of about this size is
> what Herman Miller dubbed "leapday", and it's another way to play for
> anyone still interested in 46.

What's the mapping?

From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-05-18)
Subject: [MMM] Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

--- In [email protected], "Keenan Pepper"
<keenanpepper@...> wrote:
>
> On 5/17/06, Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> > Since we were discussing 46-et here a while back, let me add that
> > the 13-limit linear temperament with a fifth of about this size is
> > what Herman Miller dubbed "leapday", and it's another way to play for
> > anyone still interested in 46.
> 
> What's the mapping?

The wedgie-stub is [1 21 15 11 8], which gives the mapping in terms of
chains of 46-et fifths. 46-et is a poptimal tuning for leapday so you
may as well use it, it seems to me.

From: daniel_anthony_stearns (2006-05-19)
Subject: [MMM] Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

gene, you're free to post whatever you like, and i'm sure me saying so 
or not saying doesn't matter one bit to you. But have ever considered 
what this reads like to "lingo" outsider--or even a non-tuning forum 
microtonalist? Why is that important? Well, it's probably not, and i'm 
actually NOT hostile to the work you're doing and it's probably better 
tohave little names and tags and titles than it is mathematical 
equations and lengthy notes to explain every new term.....but in the 
same way that you will NEVER see the tuningmath list overrun with 
people posting music--has there ever even been one?--I think it's at 
least worth wondering why there's a tuning-math list and a make 
microtonal music list .For an anyone but a diehard internet forum 
cultist, this much condensed jargon is like a forcefield shutting out 
any simple inquiry or even the idea that maybe if you studied the 
terminology for the next couple years you might have some idea what is 
microtonal music. I know it's not your style, but Margo probably lays 
just as much alien jargon on the average non-member of the cult as you 
do, but she usually goes to some length to add a narrative that at 
least makes you feel you have a chance to know what any of it's about. 
just some thoughts...



--- In [email protected], "Gene Ward Smith" 
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Keenan Pepper"
> <keenanpepper@> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/17/06, Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@> wrote:
> > > Since we were discussing 46-et here a while back, let me add that
> > > the 13-limit linear temperament with a fifth of about this size is
> > > what Herman Miller dubbed "leapday", and it's another way to play 
for
> > > anyone still interested in 46.
> > 
> > What's the mapping?
> 
> The wedgie-stub is [1 21 15 11 8], which gives the mapping in terms of
> chains of 46-et fifths. 46-et is a poptimal tuning for leapday so you
> may as well use it, it seems to me.
>

From: plopper6 (2006-05-19)
Subject: [MMM] Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

--- In [email protected], "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
> gene, you're free to post whatever you like, ....

I'd agree and say as a fan I'd sure like to HEAR some more music and
examples. How about this compromise: if you're going to post some
jargon you should provide a midi or mp3 example corresponding to each
obscure-to-a-music-fan term you use.

I think Gene owes about 20 examples from that one post alone   :^)

From: Aaron Krister Johnson (2006-05-18)
Subject: math (was Re: [MMM] Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece)

On Friday 19 May 2006 3:19 am, daniel_anthony_stearns wrote:
> gene, you're free to post whatever you like, and i'm sure me saying so
> or not saying doesn't matter one bit to you. But have ever considered
> what this reads like to "lingo" outsider--or even a non-tuning forum
> microtonalist? Why is that important? Well, it's probably not, and i'm
> actually NOT hostile to the work you're doing and it's probably better
> tohave little names and tags and titles than it is mathematical
> equations and lengthy notes to explain every new term.....but in the
> same way that you will NEVER see the tuningmath list overrun with
> people posting music--has there ever even been one?--I think it's at
> least worth wondering why there's a tuning-math list and a make
> microtonal music list .For an anyone but a diehard internet forum
> cultist, this much condensed jargon is like a forcefield shutting out
> any simple inquiry or even the idea that maybe if you studied the
> terminology for the next couple years you might have some idea what is
> microtonal music. I know it's not your style, but Margo probably lays
> just as much alien jargon on the average non-member of the cult as you
> do, but she usually goes to some length to add a narrative that at
> least makes you feel you have a chance to know what any of it's about.
> just some thoughts...

Daniel,

I agree with you....Gene, you certainly are doing some remarkable work, but 
lets not give anyone who comes here for music the hives! :)

Unfortunately, someone who really is interested in microtonal composition 
might think sometimes from what goes on with all the math in here that this 
is an overly cerebral bunch. there is more than a little math involved in 
tuning, but I personally draw the line at 'wedgie-stub'. I agree that that is 
off-topic in this list....tuning-math exists for that stuff.

OTOH, if they stick around long enough, they will see balanced responses, and 
see also that Gene for instance ultimately cares about the music as well, and 
maybe learn some interesting things.

I guess what daniel is saying is to emphasize "*if* they stick around"....

Part of the problem is that Gene is such a math genius that he doesn't see how 
opaque some of these concepts are for us mere mortals. :) It's really PhD 
math----Gene, I see on your webpages that you don't really write for math 
dummmies. I too love math, many here do, but I guess I can say that if I 
don't see how it works at a programming script level or algorithmic level, I 
don't 'get it'. And the terminology just makes it a turn-off (speaking 
personally, although I know I'm not the first to say so).

All this being said, I'm quite certain that the tuning world would be further 
back without Gene's (and others on tuning-math) work!

-Aaron.

From: Keenan Pepper (2006-05-19)
Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

On 5/18/06, daniel_anthony_stearns <[email protected]> wrote:
> gene, you're free to post whatever you like, and i'm sure me saying so
> or not saying doesn't matter one bit to you. But have ever considered
> what this reads like to "lingo" outsider--or even a non-tuning forum
> microtonalist? Why is that important? Well, it's probably not, and i'm
> actually NOT hostile to the work you're doing and it's probably better
> tohave little names and tags and titles than it is mathematical
> equations and lengthy notes to explain every new term.....but in the
> same way that you will NEVER see the tuningmath list overrun with
> people posting music--has there ever even been one?--I think it's at
> least worth wondering why there's a tuning-math list and a make
> microtonal music list .For an anyone but a diehard internet forum
> cultist, this much condensed jargon is like a forcefield shutting out
> any simple inquiry or even the idea that maybe if you studied the
> terminology for the next couple years you might have some idea what is
> microtonal music. I know it's not your style, but Margo probably lays
> just as much alien jargon on the average non-member of the cult as you
> do, but she usually goes to some length to add a narrative that at
> least makes you feel you have a chance to know what any of it's about.
> just some thoughts...

These are good points, Dan, especially about the idea of tuning-math
"overrun with people posting music", that's hilarious because it's
dead-on. I'm going to take it as a challenge and compose something in
Leapday, now that I know what it is.

If you're interested, [1 21 15 11 8] means the third harmonic is one
fifth, 5 is 21 fifths, 7 is 15 fifths, 11 is 11 fifths, and 13 is 8
fifths. A very complex temperament for my taste, but I'll write
something in it anyway. I think I can at least wrap my mind around the
minor third being 13/11 and the major third 14/11.

Keenan

From: Gene Ward Smith (2006-05-20)
Subject: [MMM] Re: Mohajeri Shahin's 24-EDL piece

--- In [email protected], "plopper6" <billwestfall@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> <daniel_anthony_stearns@> wrote:
> >
> > gene, you're free to post whatever you like, ....
> 
> I'd agree and say as a fan I'd sure like to HEAR some more music and
> examples. How about this compromise: if you're going to post some
> jargon you should provide a midi or mp3 example corresponding to each
> obscure-to-a-music-fan term you use.
> 
> I think Gene owes about 20 examples from that one post alone   :^)

Actually, I've posted a lot of microtonal music to go with the jargon.
I've been working with 130-et, which I'm afraid doesn't go with all
the "leapday" (and you can blame than one on Herman Miller, not me)
jargon. When finished, it will come with its own jargon, I suppose,
and not jargon appropriate to a sharp-fifths discussion.